this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2024
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When I actually talk with Trump supporters, it's very clear to me that many don't actually support trump. Or, at least, not the trump we see. It's usually a case of leading a busy life and making the mistake of trusting a news org to tell you the truth of the matter when you have five minutes to catch up. And if you pick one that supports trump ...well you see where this goes. It is admittedly clear that people don't understand the gravity of the situation—but as a result, the 'crime' is usually ignorance, not maliciousness. As always, the fact that this is a 'political' topic muddies the water, and no one understands what the other side actually wants. We do agree on most things, it's just silly tribalism that makes us call a large portion of the population a "piece of shit".
There are always those outliers that are genuinely evil, but I do believe they're outliers.
I am sure they are out there, but I haven't actually met an open Trump supporter who isn't an unhinged lunatic. In a few cases, we have gone a lifetime without their awful politics coming out, until Trump comes up and then they are actually unashamed fascists, Christian nationalists, and conspiracy guzzling assholes.
Personally I don't care to characterize em as lunatics, because that word really only serves to categorize them into an entirely different realm of brain function, and I feel like that's counterproductive and misrepresents how fascism works. It's not that millions of people lose their minds and frothingly support fascism, it's that fascism is capable of presenting itself as something else, or necessary, to an otherwise normal in-group base using a number of psychological weak points, many of which have been exacerbated in the Internet age with little popular understanding.
To name one example, I think of some folks I knew in my hometown, brilliant engineers, electricians, people with extreme talent in one specific thing, living in places where diversity has been historically squashed so they've only known a snow globe's worth of the world. And, especially among the older generation, they're simultaneously not very social media savvy but also way too online... Once they're given a nebulous external force to fear, the final stop of that train should be a surprise to no one.
I don't say this to absolve fascists of personal blame, because well and truly fuck 'em, they are responsible nonetheless. But fantasizing that their brains are just broken and don't function like ours is missing the point. Everyone's susceptible to a grift, social media bubble, or wishful thinking of some kind. And when you factor in trauma as a politically neutral psychological force, human behavior suddenly becomes a lot less "stupid" and a lot more... frustrating. Pretending we're not weak to analogues of many of the same things is doing ourselves a disservice. We need a better standard than just doing what they do when they talk about trans people like we're space aliens incapable of reason.
To be fair, that's likely because the more reasonable ones are smart enough to know it's stupid to openly proclaim support of trump. It's likely that outlier group I mentioned that are 'open trump supporters'
"Be careful to attribute malice to actions taken by ignorance".
Something like that, I don't remember the quote correctly.
I'd say as a small counter-argument though, the amount of ignorance required to still support Trump is not something simply to hand wave away.
Hanlon's razor -- "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Yeah there's a huge mistake in assuming everyone is some politically engaged online person, most people live their lives and experience politics though media. They saw the media and people freaking out over Trump from the start, yet they experienced little to nothing during his Presidency that negatively impacted their lives in contrast.
It would seemingly require intentionally being ignorant. And if you're that ignorant, whether by choice or not, and then go and vote for the guy then that makes you a piece of shit.
Great way to rephrase my point, a lot more concise XD Sometimes I ramble.
Yess! You are so right and people should hear it!
Also I feel like social media and modern news networks have hugely reinforced this "tribalism". Unfortunately, negative news always does better than positive news so I can't see news/social media platforms turning around and trying to slow down this effect.
Glenn Greenwald actually talked about how Trump supporters are famously distrustful of (a) the Security State and (b) corporate media, and so there's only like two news sources that they show positive numbers for trust in - Fox and Newsmax.
What doesn't help is that they do lie about Trump, and make him out to be a literal insurrectionist... Think what you want about him in terms of his politics being colored by racism and Islamophobia (his Muslim ban was pretty nuts), but you can't call the guy an insurrectionist unless you greatly modify what an insurrection is and what it means to insight one. Things like this plus upgrading frivolous financial misdemeanors that megacorporations routinely violate to federal crimes in an effort to remove him from the ballot have a radicalizing effect...
But yeah, IDK, I'd vote for Trump over Biden because he is antiestablishment and his foreign policy is better in the long run.
Then that makes you a shit human being.
He is literally pro-establishment. Where the fuck are you getting your information?
Where do you get your definition of insurrection? I'd have thought that attempting to overthrow a democratically elected government to install yourself as dictator meets just about any definition.
That's a mere interpretation of what happened that would never stand up in a court of law, hence why no formal charges have been brought. It's completely speculative.
Which is exactly why we can't remove him from ballots or refer to it as an insurrection.
Remember the Iraq War? We referred to the opposition after Hussein fell as terrorists (not very accurate, very lame Zioconservative take), or as insurgents, which is accurate.
Insurgency implies some long term armed resistance. It can't refer to some impromptu riot on the police lines.
You didn't answer my question - where do you get your definition of insurrection?
Trump has already been found to have incited insurrection in court, and was disqualified from the ballot in Colorado for just that reason.
The stacking of the senate, failure of democracy and abandonment of the rule of law makes bringing federal charges pointless (see his multiple impeachments). This is a strange standard to try (and fail) to apply under the circumstances.
I suppose my definition is the one from the Oxford dictionary:
J6 cannot meet such a burden since it was not an organized attempt and it certainly wasn't violent in the way that a real move to overthrow the government would be, only violent in the sense that any disorganized protest can be.
... And while some people can toss around the word insurrection, you notice that there is no serious charge against Trump on this, because there can be no charge, since he said nothing nor does any other evidence exists which show he incited anyone to any illegal act, let alone an attempt to overthrow the government. This is only possible through assumption & interpretation of what happened that it was even an 'insurrection.'
✅ Pre-planned by several groups - remember the criticism Pelosi was facing because it was well known ahead of time that this attack was planned? Several organisations were involved - Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, NSC-131, Qanon... Yep.
✅ A transparent attempt to seize the capitol by force and overturn the election after loudly and consistently rejecting the results, coercing electors, posing as fake electors - not to mention decades of gerrymandering and voter suppression, but that's straying from insurrection into rigging elections... Yep.
✅ Aside from using force to achieve what they did, don't forget that there were caches of weapons and that Trump was trying to have the mag detectors removed. The insurrectionists were calling to hang members of parliament while forcing their way on to the floor, ransacking congressional offices, injuring cops... Yep.
What part of your definition do you think hasn't been met, again?
Trump hasn't been charged with insurrection because the Democrats are cowards and the Republicans and their appointed judges are corrupt. I'll rely on the dictionary for my definitions over relying on liberal cowardice and conservative corruption, thanks.
This is what's called "cherry picking". It was an insurrection, even Fox News calls it that. Bro...
Nah, an insurrection is what was happening in Iraq after the 2003 invasion (and happening rightfully so).
If what occurred on J6 was an insurrection, it would have been explicitly violent or had a real organized plan for the literal overthrow of the government.
Even the ridiculous plan organized by the Proud Boys was not really an insurrection even though it involved demanding a re-vote (or a re-vote after a recount) because it ultimately wanted to preserve democratic norms, and the fools who came up with it sincerely believed that democracy was completely undermined by the last election... Which, arguably, it was.
Employing non-lethal means to occupy a place as a protest seems reasonable, doesn't it? This is what people did after the killing of George Floyd.
Whatever you gotta tell yourself in order to feel like you're not a piece of shit for supporting Trump and/or the GOP
I would suggest that we have always wanted uprisings against the government which is ruled by corrupt, "middle of the road" people, right, so there should be a loose alliance between the grassroots right wing and the grassroots left wing that fight for policies that are ideological and based on principle.
It's the centrists, who govern through practicality and concerns of the immediate future, that are the greatest stumbling blocks to change. They have obligations to the elites - the ideological left/right do not have any such obligations.
I disagree vehemently with Trump on his views of Muslims and his ideas about Israel, of course, but the guy certainly is an enemy of the establishment and floats out ideas that are radical and haven't been talked about in decades, like his 10% tariff tax plan.
These are real starting points for change.
BTW, I am not really a conventional leftist - I am a Libertarian, and you probably got that from some of our arguments, but I want to come out and say it... I do nto want to be seen here like PRETENDING to be a conventional leftist and thus undermining discussion.