this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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Marxist Leninist, but I think the correct term would be tankie.
ohhhhhhhhhhhh i wondered why there were a lot of .ml domains for lemmy
afaik Mali domains have been free to get for some time, but the letters make it very convenient for a marxist-leninist server
makes sense. I'm obviously not a fan of tankies, but is there a more neutral term for them? I used "ml", but I assume not all marxist-leninists are also tankies
Why? tankies are Authocratic far left people, supporting dictators with bloody hands, I don't think we need a neutral term, call them as it is, and I say this as a far left person, just not supporting authocrat dictators.
Please go back to reddit.
I think someone felt attacked there :p good
Nah brah. It's just that the bullshit you wrote belongs to reddit. Go back to it.
All I wrote was a correct definition of a tankie. Stupid people worshipping the bloody handed dictators of russia and china.
Oh. Okay.
Calling someone a “tankie” is kind of similar to calling someone “woke”. It serves as an easy way to dismiss someone whose opinion you don’t like without actually engaging with their ideas. As such, I feel like the definition has been watered down with time.
I got the sense a few years ago that the colloquial definition used online referred to people who unironically thought Stalin did nothing wrong. Most self described marxist-leninists don’t even fit into that category. As the scope grew people start using it to refer to basically any ML. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it’s been used to refer to anyone, Marxist or otherwise, who opposes US involvement in the war.
Marxist-Leninist is the neutral term, though the current zeitgeist in "Tankie" spaces is "Just call yourself a Communist". "Tankie" is a pejorative. It doesn't mean anything more than "Socialist I don't like". I've heard some people call Anarchists Tankies if they have the bare minimum of ideologically consistent views like opposing Capitalist institutions such as the EU and NATO. Depending on what you mean by "Tankie", yes, all MLs are Tankies.
Yes, the neutral term is marxist-lenilist.
I'm not sure why we should launder tankies and make everyone else that do like ML complicit with their fucked up ideas?
Huh? If you call a serial killer a "knifey", more power to you. But if I continue calling them serial killers and you retort with "I don't think we should launder knifeys", I will lol.
You can call them vanguardists, Bolsheviks, authoritarians, tankies, or just edgy teenagers.
out of these words I prefer vanguardists. bolsheviks feels weird because that term is used a lot by nazis, authoritarians doesn't seem entirely accurate to me as marxists understand the authority of a revolutionary state as a necessary means to enable the transition to communism. I disagree with that, but don't think it is the same as authoritarianism.
How is it not authoritarianism? Basically every dictator in modern history has made some version of the exact same argument. We also have like 100 years of ML in practice now, so we know pretty well that there is not path beyond their "necessary dictatorship" phase.
I think that's a really good point!
Is it? You were completely right before, both in your assessment of the ML understanding of the necessity of a revolutionary state and in concluding that equating it with autoritarianism is not fair.
Authoritarianism is understood by most people in a similar fashion to "wishing a benevolent dictator would rise and clean up". Although some MLs might share that notion, an authoritatian revolutionary state doesn't need to be led by a dictator, as you pointed out yourself.
An "ism"s believes are defined by its scripture, famously Lenin devised what he called "democratic centralism" as decision making process. Ofc both in M and L it is concluded that authority is necessary but its still explicitly different from a dictator.
With a different understanding of authoritarianism one could call the attribution to MLs somewhat correct albeit still defamatory (since people understand it differently). However socsa made his definition explicit by talking about dictators.
So AFAIC his point "every dictator deemed his actions necessary" is not applicable to the conversation at hand especially when it is about how to correctly referr to MLs when it is at best a subset of authoritarianism.
As far as his second point goes: Having doubts that ML will get past the dictatorship phase is legitimate, however employing history as an argument isn't truthful. First and foremost: failed attempts of history are used by people to attest systemic failure to anarchism too, its just not a good argument. The 100 years too aren't honest as no ML government has ever gotten that old (btw how long did it take for lib-dem systems to establish the truths they hold "self-evident"?)
Then ofc there is a discussion to be had about how long an MLs countries dictatorship phase would need to be given attempts of foreign led coups and invasions and necessity to participate in global markets while protecting it from corruption by capital.
All in all I find their attribution of the word "authoritarianism" for ML more fueled by contempt, less by reason.
Nicht ganz unwichtig!
I see these arguments more rooted in contempt, less in reason.
Generally being doubtful of MLs ability to pass the dictatorship phase is valid though (if it refers to the rule of the party not one person)