this post was submitted on 25 May 2024
35 points (100.0% liked)

askchapo

22768 readers
273 users here now

Ask Hexbear is the place to ask and answer ~~thought-provoking~~ questions.

Rules:

  1. Posts must ask a question.

  2. If the question asked is serious, answer seriously.

  3. Questions where you want to learn more about socialism are allowed, but questions in bad faith are not.

  4. Try !feedback@hexbear.net if you're having questions about regarding moderation, site policy, the site itself, development, volunteering or the mod team.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

as an aside in the latest Trillbillies episode Terrence said that we need degrowth communism and it got me wondering what that means to everyone. to hopefully stifle any silly debates i'll clarify that i'm talking about the West, not underdeveloped/overexploited nations in the Global South.

an end to oil drilling, gas extraction, and coal mining will obviously be necessary to stop climate change. how much modern technology can we replicate without relying on those things or other ecologically violent resource extraction? what does an agriculture system that doesn't rely on petrochem-derived fertilizers and herbicides look like? how do we repair the immense damage that's already been done?

i'd really appreciate some book recommendations on this topic as well as everyone's thoughts

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] itappearsthat@hexbear.net 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

The book Half-Earth Socialism covers this very extensively as a global resource constraint problem. The sort of "default settings" would be:

  • 100% mandatory veganism
  • Essentially zero jet travel
  • 100% electrification of all personal heating/cooling/transportation needs
  • Very little gas-powered public utility transportation/manufacturing, and only from biofuels
  • 1500-2000 watts/person averaged primary energy usage; USA is currently at 12,000, see 2000 watt society

The main limiting factor is land usage. If we want to preserve half the earth's landmass for the biosphere to do whatever the fuck it does to keep us all alive, and keep 85% of existing wild species from going extinct, we don't have a lot of land to work with. Land reserved for human use will be split into:

  • Agricultural food production. Pretty obvious. Plants are much, much more efficient in terms of calorie/acre than any animal products.
  • Solar farms. These use a lot of land, but are needed to produce power for a fully electrified society.
  • Biofuel production with BeCCS. This uses a lot of land relative to how much fuel is produced, but it also sequesters carbon.
  • Actual human living/working/manufacturing space.

Needless to say the societal changes necessary to reach this state would make the cultural revolution look like child's play.

[–] blakeus12@hexbear.net 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

why not nuclear? it's way more space efficient, and solar panels need to be replaced every 20 years

[–] itappearsthat@hexbear.net 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You run out of efficiently mine-able uranium fairly quickly when trying to scale up to the electrification energy needs of an entire planet.

[–] blakeus12@hexbear.net 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

well yeah, I'm not saying the whole world should be powered by just nuclear. solar definitely has its own place as does wind, hydroelectric, and the like.

there is also alternative reactor types like thorium, and if research continues fusion (which will be more feasible under communism with a well resourced public research and energy sector)

[–] itappearsthat@hexbear.net 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Sure, I'm not really anti-nuclear generally. It is in the mix and will continue to be in the mix. However, I don't think it will be a linchpin.

People also talk about reactors taking a long time to build but all of this stuff will take a long time to build. We will overshoot. I have accepted this. All I can hope for is we don't double down and use solar radiation management to forever rob our children of a brilliant blue sky.

[–] BasementParty@hexbear.net 4 points 5 months ago

why not nuclear?

It takes 15-20 years to build, we'll run out of fuel in a few years if you use it as the main energy source, and other renewables are already good enough.

Nuclear was a useful stop-gap when solar/wind tech wasn't developed. Nuclear as a main energy source is pretty much dead in the water today though.