this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
114 points (83.1% liked)
Showerthoughts
29678 readers
1261 users here now
A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.
Rules
- All posts must be showerthoughts
- The entire showerthought must be in the title
- Avoid politics
- NEW RULE as of 5 Nov 2024, trying it out
- Political posts often end up being circle jerks (not offering unique perspective) or enflaming (too much work for mods).
- Try c/politicaldiscussion, volunteer as a mod here, or start your own community.
- Posts must be original/unique
- Adhere to Lemmy's Code of Conduct-----
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Ok, so games that revolve around superhuman perfect timing are kinda pushing the idea of being a puzzle game. What about gambling games, where it’s all about the RNG instead? All you do is pull the lever and hope for the best.
What game involves super human perfect timing that does not include some other kind of puzzle to be solved?
Fighting games? Micro Heavy RTS or MOBAs? Bullet Hell Shooters?
All of these have strategy and can thus be reduced to puzzles.
I suppose if a game was purely just, click button as fast as you can after something happens, then ok, you got me, but add even one more element, and technically this is an extremely simple puzzle, albeit brutally unforgiving in terms of getting your human body to solve the puzzle.
Is there something different you have in mind?
EDIT: Alkheemist answered this later, with rhythm games (that have no elements of strategy ie, GuitarHero is not a puzzle but NecroDancer still is). I agree those are not puzzles. Skipped my mind as I have not played one in a very long time.
I would say you also have got me on a pure RNG slot game. Theres no gameplay, theres no puzzle, theres no strategy.
At least, within the game itself. If youre going to somehow exploit or hack or something, arguably thats now a real world puzzle of how to do it and not go to jail, but excepting that... yeah, there are lots of online 'games' with literally no puzzle element, just do thing and then random output happens, with a bunch of flashy graphics that have 0 bearing on what the outcome will be, whether its a digitized horse race or slots or whatever.
I would argue those are not really games though.
The player cannot make any choice that is more or less likely to achieve the goal, thus its the illusion of a game. No meaningful choices.
You were doing well until the No Real Scotsman fallacy.
You think that pushing a button that generates a purely random outcome is a game?
To me, those are neither games nor puzzles.
There is nothing one can do, in terms of thought or execution, to influence the outcome.
Other than I suppose choosing to play or not play.
To me, a game must include some capacity of the player to influence whether they succeed or fail, within the game itself.
(I didn't downvote you - it wasn't me!)
Yeah. I think anything that passes time by giving you dopamine hits qualifies as a game. However, that wasn't my point. I was saying, you declared a statement, and then when given counter-examples, declare they aren't really games because they don't meet your previously declared statement. It's a logical fallacy.
I think your definition of puzzle games is pretty flawed, to be honest. A puzzle does not provide additional difficulty once you've identified how the pieces go together, consequently a game should behave similarly to qualify as a puzzle game. The dichotomy is between conceptualisation versus execution.
Puzzle games can be solved or "won" by identifying the solution. Not-puzzle games require execution.
Guitar Hero and OSU! are not puzzle games. Games like RTSes and MOBAs can be argued to have puzzle elements in terms of strategy and meta, but knowing the optimal thing to do will still not give you victory which imo disqualifies them as outright puzzle games.
If you have 2 minutes to solve a puzzle, is it no longer a puzzle game?
If moving certain colored pieces requires a button combo or sequence, instead of a simple action, is this no longer a puzzle game?
EDIT:
Also, by this logic, Tetris is not a puzzle game.
Knowing the optimal thing to do can be seen as but a higher order puzzle.
Yes, clearly. It still behaves the way a puzzle - or puzzle game - would: knowledge of the solution trivialises the content. It's just a puzzle game with a timer.
Depends on how the combo works. Is there an element of skill involved? If it's like a rhythm game I would just call it a puzzle/rhythm game. Otherwise it's just a puzzle game with extra steps.
For me, if the main challenge of the game is figuring out the puzzle, then it's mainly a puzzle game. If a measure of skill is required in the actual execution of beating the game it is no longer a pure puzzle game - but it can still contain puzzle elements of course.
EDIT: I would agree that Tetris is not a puzzle game.
But knowing the right strategy and item build in DotA or LoL means fuck all if you can't mechanically execute your hero properly, which - in my opinion - disqualifies them as "puzzle games".
That was in my OP though, that most games can be thought of as puzzle games with extra steps.
This is quite interesting to me.
My main point of this post is to highlight how the genres and categories we have for games breaks down upon examination and I guess changes over time.
I would say that most people either have or would call Tetris basically the most popular puzzle game.
When it came out it was basically the titular, archetypal 'puzzle' game.
I think I see what’s happening here. There are some pure puzzle games that require no execution skills at all. In the opposite end of the spectrum you have games that are all about skill and execution with no puzzles included. I guess you could call them pure skill games to make the distinction clearer.
Most games appear to be a mixture of the two extremes, so they sit somewhere on this spectrum. In order to win, you have to know what to do and execute your plan well enough. I wouldn’t call them pure puzzle games, but they do have some puzzle elements in them. If the puzzle aspects are central to the gameplay experience, it could make sense to categorize them as puzzle games of some sort, even if execution and skills matter to some extent.
I just don't get where you're getting "most games" from. If you would have phrased it like "many games can be viewed as puzzle games if you really think about it" you would have maybe had more people agree with you.
I understand your reductive approach - it's just that there are so many games it doesn't apply to that I can never agree with "most games".
I think that’s an important distinction to make when exploring what is or isn’t a puzzle game. There are lots of games where flawless execution matters as much as knowing what to do. For example, FPS games lean heavily towards the execution aspect while mixing in some solution identification too.
The purest examples of each game design style are also interesting. For example, you can play chess through snail mail, so being physically able to perform specific actions isn’t really necessary for victory. In the opposite end of the spectrum you have the simplest form of darts, which is all about skill. Just throw all the darts at the center and you’ll win. There are also more complicated versions for those who want to play a game that sits somewhere in the middle of this puzzle-execution specturm. Now that I think of it, most computer games seem to be a mixture of the two styles.
What’s the name of that mobile game where you tap to shoot an arrow at the exact perfect time so that it lands on the right spot on a spinning circle? Well, that’s the game where I fail to see any strategy. It’s all about perfect timing and tolerating the anger boiling inside your head.
Oh, and there’s this other almost equally infuriating mobile game that I haven’t yet deleted for some strange reason. It’s called Stack, and your goal is to build the tallest stack possible by having supernatural timing abilities in your fingers. Oh, and what about Flappy Bird or the dinosaur game built into Google Chrome? Basically the same idea, but you don’t have a lot of time to prepare for what’s coming. You just need to have lightning fast reaction time and perfect timing. Now that I think of it, there are lots of games where timing takes the center stage.