this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2024
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I'm assuming that you are actually asking this sincerely.
A pride flag is a symbol of acceptance. It's saying that it's okay to be gay. It's not saying you have to be gay, it's not saying you have to like that people are gay, just that it's okay to be gay.
The ten commandments are rules. It's not a message saying that it's okay to be Christian, it's saying that everyone must follow these rules.
The second one is authoritarian. It is restricting everybody, even those outside the group who created it. The first one is not authoritarian. Not giving orders to anybody, and not restricting people outside the group that created it.
I hope that actually answers the question.
Well, in the same way you could say that the Ten Commandments are just a symbol of respect. You don't have to like them, you don't even have to follow them, but it would be nicer if you did.
Try seeing what happens when someone dares to remove the flag, or even just says in its presence that they don't like gay people. I bet you the authoritarianism is going to show up real quick.
You mean see what happens when someone dares to remove the symbol of acceptance of an entire group?
It is like removing a sign that says "everybody welcome". You do that because you think some people are not welcome.
What do you expect to happen?
Ah, the old paradox of tolerance strikes again.
Your comparison is invalid because clearly, the rainbow flag does NOT mean "everybody is welcome". It means "everybody who agrees with us about who is welcome is welcome".
Bro fr doesn't even understand the point of the "paradox of tolerance" and thinks it's a weapon in this argument lmao
He also just admitted that he doesn't believe LGBTQ people are "welcome."
Cool story bro
That's correct. If you'd just been invited into a tight-knit circle of friends, you wouldn't say "I don't like Joe. His nose is too big. I think he should be kicked out." and expect to be allowed to stick around.
Again, I'm going to assume you're being serious here and respond as if it's a real conversation.
You say that the ten commandments are a sign of respect. A respect for whom or what?
I appreciate that, and I will do my best to honor that.
They're a sign of respect for and recognition of the essential humanity of others. No one likes to be lied to, stolen from, murdered, or envied. There is no exception made for rich and powerful people, nor for different races, creeds, or sexual orientations.
Yes, you can make the case that they also proscribe a requirement to believe in the Christian God, in which case I would say that's no different than arguing that the pride flag is not saying that you have to be gay.
So the pride flag is necessary because, historically and very recently, non-straight people have been oppressed. Oppressed so badly that many kill themselves because of how they're treated. It is a travesty that we treat other Americans this way just because they're different.
Christians do not suffer like that. It's literally impossible for Christians to suffer like that, as they make up the vast majority of the country. No one can possibly oppress a majority. Hurt their feelings, maybe, but not oppress.
I think if we are putting up religious tenets as a way of showing respect, we should put up the tenets of a religion that is actually oppressed in this country. One that is treated with hostility, and whose members are hated for no reason other than their beliefs. That would show them that we're an accepting country, who actually follow Jesus' values of loving our neighbors.
Right. It’s not like the symbol of their religion isn’t literally a dead guy hanging on a cross. Totally a sign of how much they don’t suffer.
You’re acting as if Christians are somehow a completely homogenous group who all constantly agree on everything all the time. If anything, this shows how blatantly ignorant you are of the reality.
It’s not just that there are hundreds of different denominations whose only commonality is that they agree on who God is, but who constantly feud about various aspects and interpretations of their theology, but even within individual churches you’ll rarely find two individuals who are in complete agreement with each other about everything.
And it’s not as if Christians are somehow immune to addiction, self-harm, or even suicide. The smallest minority is the minority of one, and that’s in fact what the crucifix stands for, because Jesus went up alone against a mob full of murderous rage to defend the rights of the individual to be free from religious prosecution.
But I like your suggestion, so in the spirit of reconciliation, might I offer the following compromise: instead of the Ten Commandments, we use Jesus’s version found in Matthew 19:18:
There, no more reference to any God, creed, or mandatory holy days. Gay or straight, male or female, brown or white, Muslim or Buddhist, no one is excluded or unduly put upon. Except people whose religion tells them it’s good to kill or steal from other people I guess…
Those are worded in an inaccessable way. "You shall not...". How about "don't lie"? It's the same message without the clear religious overtones that are obviously steeped in the Christian translation from Latin and Greek.
I also disagree with #5. Not everyone's parents deserve honor. Some are horrible and we shouldn't make children feel bad for not loving shit parents.
But even if I agreed to the rest, it wouldn't work. Those things are the basis of social emotional learning. The GOP is explicitly legislating against teaching that.
If that's the worst you have to say about them... sure, I'm not married to a specific translation.
Honoring them isn't the same as loving them, you know. And even if they're complete shitbags who don't deserve any respect at all, you can still honor them for having given you life by becoming a better person then them. But sure, we can strike that one if you can accept the rest.
Ah well, but of course you can't... because Republicans exist. But if rules like this are the basis of social emotional learning, and Republicans want to legislate putting them into the classroom, how exactly does that prove that they are against this sort of thing? Or are you arguing that these rules are getting in the way of such learning? If so, how?
Well that's a great question. Let's brainstorm.
Republicans have pushed against SEL, which is all about being empathetic and kind to your neighbors, and being aware of your own emotions and how to handle them. These are all things Jesus would love. These are things that the portions of the ten commandment I highlighted support.
At the same time, Republicans are pushing for the ten commandments to be included in the classroom.
These are both objectively fact, right? We can see this happening, there are news stories, there are people talking about it. So how would you explain this dissonance?
I'm always a little suspicious when people who don't even believe in Jesus try to tell me what he would have loved but let's have a look at why those evil, evil Republicans might have been on the fence about it, shall we?
Ah well, that sounds pretty typical, doesn't it. And it's funny because SEL lists self-awareness and responsible decisionmaking among its primary goals, but somehow, the people who are pushing for it can't seem to
Not the best advertisement for SEL's effectiveness, don't you think?
Scary buzzwords, to be sure. The second two topics are about accepting people for who they are. The first is about recognizing that our current laws are unfair to some people.
These are not unreasonable things. But I will not be able to convince you of that. I imagine nothing would.
So regardless. If they wanted to teach ethics, they can do so by posting a short list of things everyone should do. They aren't doing that. They're pushing one religion's agenda, and we don't do that in America.
Okay, you admit then that the criticism is factual and SEL is in fact a vehicle for pushing left-wing politics into the classroom?
In that case, can you blame right-wing politicians for wanting to do the same? Because that's just the pot calling the kettle black. In other words, politics as usual.
No, I admit that people have unfounded concerns about SEL, and that I'm not going to be able to change the mind of someone so entrenched in fear of those topics. It also isn't relevant to the point.
And I can't tell if you're being snarky in that last comment, or if you're saying that it's clearly the GOP trying to push a religious agenda? I mean, you may think that's justified. But that is what they're doing?
That's not an admission, that's an accusation.
It's very relevant because your failure to demonstrate even ONE of the proposed learning goals of SEL while still defending its implementation in public schools is evidence that you care more about the left-wing politics that are embedded in it than the package they're wrapped in.
Of course they're pushing a religious agenda. But at least they're being honest about it. Meanwhile, you've already admitted that the Trojan horse theory is true and STILL act as if its somehow a great moral evil to condemn that.
I think you're not reading my words. SEL was an example, and clearly not a good one so I should not have brought it up. It's irrelevant to ten commandments in the classroom except as an example. So it's not relevant here. Happy to have a different thread about that later. But this thread is about ten commandments.
People should not be pushing a religious agenda. That's it. Full stop. If you can't agree on that, then we cannot find any place to agree.
No, it was a perfect example, because it showed very clearly that you don’t really care about principles or values, and it’s all about political power and influence for you.
You seem like you have a lot of hostility. To the point where you feel the need to attribute random bad things to someone you just met. Honestly, that's not healthy. You might want to speak to your pastor or trusted friend. Not being able to have a normal conversation is a symptom of very big underlying problems.
Okay, so now that you're out of arguments, you're trying to shame me for beating you in a debate that YOU decided to have. And you don't even seem to realize that by doing so, you're just providing more evidence that you have no principles whatsoever and it's all about power for you.
A rational person would just admit when they're beat instead of digging their own hole deeper. Your lack of self-awareness is truly astounding.
There's no winning and losing in discussion. It's not a contest. The point of sharing ideas is to learn and have better ideas.
But like I said, you and I differ at a fundamental level. I say no religion in the classroom, unless it's taught like a cultural class and includes many religions. You want religion in the classroom, but only if it's your religion. We will never see eye to eye.
And I'm not trying to shame you. I'm telling you you're being a dick for no reason, and that's a personal problem you should work on. I don't care if work on it or not, I don't know you. But I bet you're surrounded by people who would appreciate if you worked on yourself a bit.
But hey, don't take advice from a heathen. You might end up in hell and burn for all eternity.
Yet you are still attempting to wrestle victory out of this discussion by championing political aesthetics over moral principles. People like you shouldn’t even have the right to vote as far as I am concerned, because you’re just going to use it to vote for more “free” stuff that others have to pay for using their blood, sweat, and tears (and sometimes their literal lives). Absolutely despicable. You are literally the cancer that’s ruining democracy.
This is the first sensible thing you’ve said.
Oh no! Those filthy liberals might use this program as a Trojan horse to teach our children that checks notes
Tell me you are not dredging up literal ancient history from 2000 years ago to justify why you are oppressed today
Calling you an asshole is not authoritarian
That’s true. It’s just childish and immature.