Genius. If you export some of the apes, the remaining population requires less habitat, leaving more room for plantations! /s
this post was submitted on 08 May 2024
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On the other hand, Palm oil is one of the densest crops that exist, as in it yield the most nutritional value per m2. So sustainable Palm oil production is less harmful to habitat than mostly any other crop in any other country.
Just Google "the benefit of palm oil production"
Palm Oil yields 4-10 times more oil per hectare than other sources of vegetable oil such as soybeans or coconut palms. The plant accounts for just 9% of the 322 million hectares of land used to produce oil crops globally, yet it produces 36% of the oil. This makes it an efficient and profitable use of land.
Unfortunately deforestation to make palm oil is still a thing, but this is not equal among palm oil producing countries.
In Denmark our main vegetable oil product is from Raps seeds, using about 5 times as much agricultural area for similar yield. But fortunately for us, we had our deforestation of almost the entire country several hundred years ago to make a huge naval fleet, and no body complains today that we are not regrowing those forests.
This is not an equal standard for developing countries, they always get blamed much worse for doing things we already did decades or centuries ago in developed countries.
These countries need to be helped, not to be hindered.
Fun fact, the Jamestown Colony, the first colony Britain set up in the Americas, was intended to send timber back to Britain because they were running out of wood for construction and fuel due to all of the deforestation.
We did it first so everybody else can't.
Fucked up, but literaly true.
Europeans pushed the whole world to the edge, and now if anyone else does the same thing we all topple over.
Funny how I'm downvoted, but you are upvoted for agreeing??? LOL
Some people here are straight up weird.
I think the anger is directed and the agricultural conglomerates and the governments that have allowed those groups to pillage these places while selling out their countrymen, not the farm workers themselves or the citizens of those countries. Probably no matter the issue, that is likely the case. I know palm oil is important to many people, and colonialism is a lot of the cause of these issues for both the people and those that care about the local environments, as many times they are the same people.
Many people, myself included, don't know much about the current Malay government, so the initial action being mistrust of something like this shouldn't be a surprise. As people are realizing how much of our natural resources we've squandered for quick cash, I don't fault them for being angry.
As you said though, it's important to realize there are good and bad actors in all of these situations, plus many doing what they need to survive in many of these regions.
Very nice post, I admit I don't know a lot about Malaysia either, but I've seen many times that they are working to make Palm oil production sustainable.
It's easier for us to fight each other as individuals instead of focusing our dissatisfaction toward the ones causing these problems, so I didn't want to see this sink down into that when everyone had valid criticisms. I want to see the people and environment be protected.
From looking it up quick, 90% of palm oil comes from Indonesia and Malaysia, so it is important to understand how it is being produced, so I've marked some things to read so I can get better informed. I'm glad you were brave enough to speak up when everyone was pretty fired up on the issue already.
I’m glad you were brave enough to speak up when everyone was pretty fired up on the issue already.
Thank you, I was half expecting to be massively downvoted. Still I think it's worth pointing out that this issue isn't nearly as black and white as some wants us to believe.
In part because I feel I've been mislead myself, and usually it's done in a propaganda like fashion.
We all get fed info from everywhere, it's just our individual responsibility to filter through it and verify it. Nothing to feel guilty over, just post if the joy of the human experience. 🙃
We all get fed info from everywhere, it’s just our individual responsibility to filter through it
This is absolutely true, but if the propaganda is dominating an issue, it can be hard to distinguish from something that is universally accepted, and seems it doesn't need to be questioned.
Even going for the research requires strong critical thinking, as research is often paid for to show a specific wanted result by the customer.
This we have most famously seen with the tobacco and sugar industries. But it is really really common.
So to filter correctly is not always easy.
It will always be a challenge, but we're also in an era where communication is available to us at the same capacity it is to the propagandists. We've got leakers and whistleblowers like never before. We also have crackpots who can do the same, but it's much harder to isolate and silence those with positive agendas.
All we can do is keep trying to learn all we can and apply our critical thinking and share what we learn. I post a lot here and always try to show references, as itn no expert on anything, just someone with a love of learning.
It's worth considering the biodiversity loss where palm oil is grown, as all land area is not equally valuable to nature either. Most palm oil plantations used to be rainforests.
True, I just don't think we are entitled to point fingers, and Malaysia claims to have sustainable production.
This rape seed field is just outside my house, it's darn pretty IMO, but the biodiversity that was here is gone centuries ago.
This is fucking disgusting.
Why?
From the article:
Malaysia is a sustainable oil palm producer and is committed to protecting forests and environmental sustainability.
Because 1) orangutans are only one of the hundreds of thousands species affected by deforestation, and 2) catching, transporting and confining animals in zoos is hardly an improvement to their life: apes are social animals who live in large groups in large habitats, they suffer in zoos. 3) this is the commodification of sentient beings, ironically the very species they pretend to wanting to help. Greenwashing at its finest.
Orangutans aren't social like most apes are, but your other points are right on.
That's a quote from Malaysia's commodities minister, so I don't know if you can trust it. The article also says
The Asian nation is the world's second-largest producer of the widely used commodity, whose production is blamed by environmentalists for fuelling the destruction of the great ape's habitats in both Malaysia and Indonesia.
Any statement that boils down to "this extractive industry is environmentally sustainable" is massively suspicious. I don't trust that statement at all. I don't buy that you can produce palm oil on that scale while respecting nature.
Well IDK how it's done with Palm oil, but AFAIK what is meant by sustainable, is that the area is regrown, that's how we do with forestation here too. And that's been grown and harvested sustainably for many decades.
Basically you are putting forward what is called an argument from ignorance.
So let me get this straight: they cut down the forest, plant palm trees, harvest it for i guess a few years, and then... plant the forest back? How does that make sense just on any level?
I mean at least i happen to know it doesn't make sense on an ecological level as a new groth forest is massively different from an old growth forest, so the new forest is no replacement for the old one.
Also i'm not sure if you understand what an argument from ignorance is? It's not an ignorant argument, it's a specific type of logical fallacy. The observation that no extractive industry has proven sustainable is a predictor that they're unlikely to prove sustainable in the future.
Your argument from ignorance is that you don't understand how palm oil can be sustainable, and because you don't understand it, you think it must be unsustainable.
Without having read the article, I'm not sure I buy that it's as sustainable as they say.
Argument from ignorance is pretty worthless and nothing more than a baseless opinion, which you are of course free to have.
What, does it say something different, assuming you read it? Generally speaking, third world palm oil production is unsustainable, because how could it not be with weak rule of law.
If it pertains to capitalism it's unsustainable by default.
Bullshit, capitalism has nothing to do with it, it's all about the regulation. Communist Soviet Union polluted way more than their capitalist counterparts by every measure, because their regulation sucked.
Yes, totalitarianism also has endless growth problems...
Gross
Why?
Because 1) orangutans are only one of the hundreds of thousands species affected by deforestation, and 2) catching, transporting and confining animals in zoos is hardly an improvement to their life: apes are social animals who live in large groups in large habitats, they suffer in zoos. 3) this is the commodification of sentient beings, ironically the very species they pretend to wanting to help. Greenwashing at its finest.
I agree Orangutangs are amazing animals, and in principle I dislike the concept of Zoos, but I cannot fault a country like Malaysia from trying to turn around the massive propaganda there has been against Palm oil, which I must admit I suspect is engineered by competing even more harmful agriculture interests in the west.
"Thanks for giving us money at the expense of our wildlife. Here's some more of it to exploit."
I'm gonna have to nuance that: while palm oil is an environmental disaster, it is in fact the most efficient vegetable oil in terms of land area per ton of finished product. This is because the the plant that produces it is incredibly productive, more than sunflowers or rapeseed.
So changing to other vegetable oils would result in more land area being cultivated overall.
This is because it grows where rainforests are supposed to be, what is maybe the most productive natural habitat. There is likely far more wildlife per land area where palm oil is grown than places you can grow other vegetable oils.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
it is in fact the most efficient vegetable oil in terms of land area per ton of finished product
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Sunflowers and rapeseed can be planted and harvested every year or even multiple times a year, palms cannot.
Better than gorilla warfare to be sure
I'm not sure handing out wild orangutans in cages en mass sends the message about conservation they're hoping it will.
Here: we've destroyed their homes, if you care so much about them - adopt!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Malaysia has said it plans to present orangutans to major palm-oil-importing countries with the aim of boosting its credentials as a conserver of biodiversity.
The Asian nation is the world's second-largest producer of the widely used commodity, whose production is blamed by environmentalists for fuelling the destruction of the great ape's habitats in both Malaysia and Indonesia.
Malaysia's commodities minister, Johari Abdul Ghani, said the plan would entail gifting the great apes to trading partners, such as the EU, India and China, that import large quantities of palm oil for use in products from food to cosmetics.
"This will prove to the global community that Malaysia is committed to biodiversity conservation," Johari said on social media platform X, formerly Twitter, late on Tuesday.
In the scheme's current form, China only loans pandas to foreign zoos, which must usually return any offspring within a few years of their birth to join the country's breeding program.
However, according to the conservation organization WWF, its production on large plantations has decisively contributed to a significant loss of orangutan habitat in both Malaysia and Indonesia, which is the main exporter of the commodity.
The original article contains 366 words, the summary contains 184 words. Saved 50%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!