Kids have more years to offer the system. Working as intended.
this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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But thanks to Reaganomics, prison turned to profits
'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics
'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison
You think I'm bullshittin, then read the 13th Amendment
Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits
That's why they givin' offenders time in double digits
-Killer Mike, Reagan
I'm glad Regan dead
-Also Killer Mike
"It's Reagonomics baby"
- Neil Cicierega, Reagonomics
such a banger
Could be that the crimes that lead to kids being tried as adults tend to be especially severe, warranting a longer sentence
The example listed, 40 years for armed robbery, seems definitely nuts. But by pure statistics, this isn’t necessarily a crazy result.
Nope.
Children tried as adults were sentenced to a little more than three years in prison on average for third-degree felonies — around 50% longer than the average sentence given to adults for the same class of offense. The vast majority of all felony charges are third-degree offenses, which are the lowest class of felony crimes and include burglary, some types of assault, drug possession and certain DUI offenses.
Children and adults had similar average sentences for more serious offenses that fall under first and second-degree felonies.
Doesn’t that illustrate my point though?
Seriousness of charges isn’t necessarily the same as seriousness of crime. I read more about Knight’s case and it sounds like them departing from sentencing guidelines for armed robbery happened for the same reason as them wanting to charge him as an adult - I.e. that his actions were worse than you would think just from reading the name of the charge.
For serious offenses, they get treated the same. The only difference is for third-degree felonies, which it sounds like would be the main circumstance where that correlation would come into play. Why wouldn’t there be a difference in sentencing, when you’re specifically selecting for the more serious circumstances on the juvenile side and not on the adult side of the data you’re comparing?
Because if you are selecting for more serious circumstances, higher charges would apply. Giving them a lesser charge, but a longer sentence, doesn't make sense.
That is the entire point of the article, disproportionate sentencing for the same charges.
Again:
Seriousness of charges isn’t necessarily the same as seriousness of crime.
And:
it sounds like them departing from sentencing guidelines for armed robbery happened for the same reason as them wanting to charge him as an adult - I.e. that his actions were worse than you would think just from reading the name of the charge.
Not every third degree felony is identical to every other third degree felony. There are ones where the circumstances of the case are going to warrant a longer sentence, and those are probably going to overlap with the ones where the circumstances of the case would warrant charging a juvenile as an adult.
And, the least serious felonies are going to have more "space" for more serious circumstances to exist, and so it would make sense how those have this anomalous thing exist with them, that doesn't exist with the more serious felonies where the charge better encompasses the full seriousness of the crime.
What is more likely is that more of the minors who are charged as adults are minorities, which is already known to result in disproportionately longer sentences. That is aligned with racist assumptions that minorities commit more crimes or the way they commit crimes is worse.
So as long as we are both speculating, mine is based on actual disproportionate outcomes in criminal sentencing and yours is based on an assumption that the disparity had a logical explanation. Disproportionate sentencing tends to be based on racism and sexism, not reasonable logic.
What is more likely is that more of the minors who are charged as adults are minorities, which is already known to result in disproportionately longer sentences.
Why in your theory doesn't that happen for 1st and 2nd degree felonies?
The racism in the system applies across all levels -- for adults and kids, for 1st and 2nd and 3rd degree felonies. It could be that this particular effect is a result of some kind of unequal application, sure. But I wouldn't automatically assume that racism applies very specifically to 3rd degree felonies committed by juveniles in a way it doesn't for 2nd degree felonies, or for 3rd degree felonies committed by adults, or what have you.
It sort of sounds like you're assuming that something you already know (that the system is racist) is definitely responsible for anything and everything about the system, and anyone who doesn't see it that way automatically must just not know the system is racist, and you need to explain that to them. Yes, I know the system is racist.
So as long as we are both speculating, mine is based on actual disproportionate outcomes in criminal sentencing and yours is based on an assumption that the disparity had a logical explanation.
It seems like you're just not grasping the mathematical concept I'm trying to explain (or maybe, just not even understanding that there might be anything to grasp other than that the system is racist.) And then saying the only explanation for anything in the criminal justice system is always racism. IDK man. I tried twice to explain it, and it seems like it failed both times.
If you want to understand, let me know, and I'll try again. If you just want to tell me that the system is racist (which, again, it is) and the problem is just that I'm too stupid to know that it is racist and need you to explain it to me, I think I'll go off and do something else instead.
Why in your theory doesn’t that happen for 1st and 2nd degree felonies?
Because longer sentences don't have as much proportional variance as a shorter sentence.
When a sentencing range is 1-5 years, some people will have sentences that are 5 times as long as others. When the sentencing range is 25-40 years, nobody will have a sentence that is even twice the duration of someone else.
I understand the point you are trying to make on math. I am saying your point is based on flawed assumptions.
Yes, I am also saying that racism and sexism are the most likely explanation for any disproportionate outcome when looking at the legal system. Single judges might have their own personal variance, but when looking at state levels and above it always ends up being racism or sexism that drives the trends.
I am saying your point is based on flawed assumptions.
What flawed assumptions?
Not every third degree felony is identical to every other third degree felony. There are ones where the circumstances of the case are going to warrant a longer sentence, and those are probably going to overlap with the ones where the circumstances of the case would warrant charging a juvenile as an adult.
You are assuming that what leads to a child being charged as an adult is the curcumstances of the crime, and that they will have a longer sentence for those lesser charges instead of different charges that reflect the sentence.
My assumption that the trend in this article is based on racism is because that is absolutely a thing that happens. Here's an article that covers just how racist Florida is for charging minors in general and charging them as adults.
The number of direct file cases among Black teens is also disproportionate to the overall juvenile arrests.
In FY 2020-21, there were 19,086 juveniles arrested statewide; 46% were Black, 37% were white and 16% were Latinx.
Yet, Black juveniles comprised 61% of the children transferred to adult courts.
“The racial disparities in direct file cases are still real and significant, so that is a real problem,” McCoy said.
Both race and the circumstances of the crime are going to impact their being charged as an adult, and the sentence they receive. The existence of racism doesn’t mean that the circumstances of the case will now have 0 bearing on their punishment - it’s not one or the other; it is both.
Like I say, the system is racist, yes. It feels like you just seized on an opportunity to lecture about racism and deny the existence of literally any other factor being possible except for race. It’s childish and reductive and hostile to things that are necessary for understanding the world. Stop doing that. This will be my last message to you on this topic.
My assumption that the trend in this article is based on racism is because that is absolutely a thing that happens.
I could say that people order vanilla ice cream more than chocolate because of racism, and then if someone said that wasn’t true I could cite a bunch of statistics about how racism is absolutely a thing that happens and get mad at them for denying the impact of racism, and it would make an equal amount of sense as your argument here.
It feels like you just seized on an opportunity to lecture about racism and deny the existence of literally any other factor being possible except for race.
You asked for an explanation and I provided it, then explained in further detail when you dismissed it. If that feels like being lectured, maybe you shouldn't ask for explanations.
I see you haven't given up on the explanation you pulled out of thin air to avoid the obvious explanation of racism. Why are you so dedicated to dismissing racism? Do you feel personally attacked by Florida's legal system being criticized for its racism?
"You fucked up so bad that we're ignoring your age for trial/sentencing, but now that were here... Meh we'll just give you a slap on the wrist."
- Literally no judge ever.
we're ignoring your age for trial/sentencing
Actually
Florida is one of 13 states that give prosecutors unfettered power to try children as adults without getting sign-off from a judge
And your point is? How does that make what I said less true?
Well, there is the fact that it's only true because it isn't the judge that makes the decision about ignoring age for the purposes of the trial, it's the prosecutor.
Also, prosecutors don't really care about having the fairest trials possible and pursuing the truth as much as a judge does/is supposed to, they care about winning cases and looking tough on crime, so whether or not they decide to charge a juvenile as an adult has a lot more to do with those things than the seriousness of the underlying offense. Poor kids with public defenders and burglary charges get tried as adults because that's an easy win and opportunity to run up the scoreboard, while rich kids with fancy lawyers and sexual assault charges get a plea deal for court ordered counseling because anything else would be a ton of work and they might lose anyway.
Well, there is the fact that it's only true because it isn't the judge that makes the decision about ignoring age for the purposes of the trial, it's the prosecutor.
Did my post suggest that it was the judge making that decision? I only indicated that the judge was speaking in that hypothetical because judges are the ones who announce the sentencing. Don't put words in other people's mouths.
Color of skin?
The article is missing critical info about frequency and severity.
While the premise (and headline) seems outrageous,
- Juveniles tried as adults should be rare
- Should only apply to the worst cases
If my expectations are met, is it really so bad that a small number of the worst offenders got excessive sentences? Is it really fair to compare sentences of a small number of the worst offenders to sentences of the general population?
However I didn’t read anywhere in the article whether these were truly a small number or that they were the worst offenders.
I think this section answers a lot of your questions
Only one in 10 of the more than 20,000 children tried as adults in Florida were given juvenile sanctions and less than 5% received a “youthful offender” designation, the Herald found in an analysis of the last 15 years of state court system sentencing data from 2008 to 2022.
Children tried as adults were sentenced to a little more than three years in prison on average for third-degree felonies — around 50% longer than the average sentence given to adults for the same class of offense. The vast majority of all felony charges are third-degree offenses, which are the lowest class of felony crimes and include burglary, some types of assault, drug possession and certain DUI offenses.
Children and adults had similar average sentences for more serious offenses that fall under first and second-degree felonies. Overall, a child tried as an adult was sentenced to a little more than five years for a felony charge while an adult received around three-and-a-half years. These trends held even after the Herald adjusted for the most extreme sentences that could skew the figures.
is it really so bad that a small number of the worst offenders
They're not necessarily "the worst," prosecutors can try any juvenile as an adult that they want to in Florida
Is it really fair to compare sentences of a small number of the worst offenders to sentences of the general population?
They're comparing juveniles and adults charged with the same class of crimes, and actually the disparity is more pronounced with the lowest level third degree felonies than with the first and second degree ones.
Shut up nerd I want to be mad about the prison system again /s
(It is actually a big problem but you're right to question the premise in this case)