this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2023
195 points (97.1% liked)
Europe
8324 readers
4 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe πͺπΊ
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, π©πͺ ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
The only chart where Italy clearly outperforms neighbouring countries! π A side note for any European who wants to feel superior: the Italian minister of infrastructures has declared recently, speaking about a deadly bus accident which had strongly shocked public opinion, that the vehicle being electric can not be ruled out as a cause for the event, implying that endothermic engines are still preferable (source).
That's what you get when you vote dumb fascist politicians into power. I bet it's not the first time some erratic explanation was given from one of those right wing politicians.
Yes, agreeable (I would not have used those words though, the real danger is not in this minister nor in his party). But why do you think they were elected in the first place and why is their consensus soaring day after day? Are people just "dumb"? Misinformation? Distrust of more moderate parties who did nothing to prevent the current crisis? This is a place for discussion.
Well, since we see a surge of right-wing parties in all western countries, I would say they are doing something right. Populism seems to work on a large slice of the population. Offering apparently easy solutions, blaming scapegoats and fueling a culture war combined with media articles, that get written for the most clicks, are a winning recipe for the right.
Offering simple solutions to complex problems, especially if those "total solutions" can not be verified because their goal is unreachable has its point as an explanation. Scapegoating too, since it gives the illusion of freedom from responsibility (it's cheaper to blame immigrants/LGBT rather than assume one's own responsibilities e.g. for climate disaster). But to me there's more: in Italy we passed from a radical left populism (M5S) to radical right populism (Lega/FdI) with the pandemic in between. Shouldn't people realize that simple solutions do not work?
"TraDItIONal PaRtIEs ARe FaIlINg!!!!111!1!1"
-
Provocative: Offering simplistic solutions in an ever-complex world.
-
Missed Opportunities: Failure to reform parliamentary and democratic institutions, as seen in Renzi's unsuccessful attempt.
-
Post-2008 Fallout: Economic challenges exacerbated by Germany's austerity policies, evident during the Covid pandemic.
-
Middle-Class Struggles: Ignored or worsened by neoliberal reforms, coupled with challenges of an aging society.
-
Disinformation Game: Undemocratic players like Russia and China exploit Western disparities to destabilize opinions.
In summary, it's a confluence of economic, ecological, and political challenges ignored for years. Neoliberal and conservative leaders failed to prepare the public for these fast-approaching changes. The current era of transformation is overwhelming, with parties seeking change challenging the status quo.
Right-wing and fascist parties globally tap into the frustration, promoting a familiar narrative: "Return to simpler times by blaming refugees, migrants, trans, homosexuals, and others. We offer stability and structure." It's a playbook used a century ago and likely to resurface in the next crisis.
Yes, only that this time there is no future ahead... not many will survive the crisis and the quality of life for those who will is going to be close of the "good ol' times" when we lived in caves.
The bus being electric, means the firefighting procedure is the same as with electric cars: wait for it to burn up... along with anyone still trapped inside.
Electric is the future, but don't forget that:
- Gasoline ignites at -40C, needs oxygen
- Diesel ignites at +50C, needs oxygen
- Biodiesel ignites at +130C, needs oxygen
- LiPo batteries can ignite at -200C if punctured, will burn underwater
It's pretty alarming that most of these temperature records were actually broken in just the last few years.
In France, I understood the fight against climate change is probably already over when we had 40Β°C at midnight one day of the previous summer.
It's an eary feeling to feel ultra hot air in the middle of the night coming from an opened window.
Not saying I'm not trying to act against climate change on my level but I know we already lost.
Be careful with that statement because that's what Oil is pushing now:
- They changed the "climate change ain't real" to the "climate change ain't bad" and later into the "it's too late, let's enjoy it while it lasts" message.
The goal is ensuring people do not require action from their political representatives, be it by ignorance or by resigning.
The other prong of attack is blaming consumers/individuals. This is useful for them as it keeps those that want action busy (recycling, planting trees, using bikes, buying EVs or using trains, avoiding plastic, etc.) and shifts blame on to the rest.
Not that any of those actions are bad, but aren't at the core of the problem, like blaming someone for wasting water for taking a shower while you have an olympic pool.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change
https://www.yesmagazine.org/environment/2022/01/31/climate-change-fossil-fuel-industry-individual-responsibility
Climate Town - The Troll Army of Big Oil
You know what is also harmful propaganda?
To shift the entire blame on some faceless companies or politicians, or "rich people", ignoring that you're part of the rich people on this planet. You all are the people those companies produce their shit for. You all are the people who vote the people responsible for their inaction into power. You all are who shun and ridicule all the green parties, politicians and activists.
You can continue to do that, but you only do it so you can continue to drive your cars, to continue to buy cheap products from countries like China, to continue to consume highly polluting animal produce on a daily basis, to continue to uphold your lavish lifestyle while actual poor people have fuck all (including barely any emissions).
Your type of comment is nothing but greenwashing too and I'd not be surprised if some leaks in a few years come out that will back up the fact that oil companies were pushing for that too.
I agree with your comment partially: we need to change how we live, but in some occasions a large part of us are forced to a choice.
My point is that if we desire change we need to work it through grassroots movements, volunteering and being vocal about it, even if it's just a local thing.
Yes, we're richer than most and we're probably voting the wrong people, but don't blame the cows for being in a pen.
We're not going to change anything of this through grassroots movements. We need very big and very drastic changes at this stage. Like, look at a global co2 emissions chart. It goes up continuously, with a small sharp dip during covid. Remember what this did to our economies and how much it pissed off voters? However, this fall during that time would have to continue all the way to 2035 for us to actually meet our climate targets.
And your cows, pen or not, are contributing massively with their methane emissions. Cow & sheep produce are some of the worst climate killers.
This is one of the big problems. Even those who claim to be aware of the issue aren't actually. So now the only ones who are, are shunned & seen as "doomers" and whatnot. And that's ultimately why I've given up. People don't want to change, which means to me they'll have to suffer through all the consequences of it.
So what I happen to have the same stance as the oil industry?
I consistently try to vote against politics who are not doing anything for the environment.
I didn't vote initially for Macron because he barely does anything for the environment but then I had to choose between Marine Le Pen (far right and often considered as racist) or Macron. Both of them really bad to fight against climate change.
In my country at least, you only have an illusion of democracy with our current system. And Macron works only on announcement that they carefully draw back a few months later when they already have benefited from the political gains of announcing yet another ambitious climate plan.
Maybe the oil industry says this is lost because they know they control fully the politics in power.
Again, I do as much on my level and I'm about to embark in a 10h train journey across France to avoid taking a 2h flight. I'm trying. I'm just saying we are delaying the inevitable which is on its own already a good thing.
But this mechanically cannot work. Our president is elected for 5 years and has no reason to lose votes for something that will be an issue for the next generations. And we cannot elect people who care about the environment because the populist far right parties are too strong right now and gathering support through xenophobia and racism.
Do your best for the environment but just keep in mind that we need to prepare for the worst for the next generations. I think we are doing a disservice to them to tell them we are actively trying to fix climate change when the CO2 emissions are very clearly increasing.
Oil subsidies have never been higher. It's fucked up.
Everyone feels this way, or at least most people. If there was a sane green party in your country, mine or elsewhere it will get a majority easily (though would have to fight disinformation with tooth and nail).
I've got kids, and I felt like you. Felt that we're screwing their world to a tipping point and leaving them in a boring mad max-like situation.
But at the same time, the number of brilliant scientists, engineers and common people that are trying their best helping us out of this mess are the largest ever.
Maybe we won't apply enough change that it matters, but while we're at it, we should try our best. And I'm not talking about the personal responsibility bullshit companies want us to believe, but social action.
Do you want change? Look for local groups that promote it and volunteer.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Climate Town - The Troll Army of Big Oil
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
No, there is no upper limit to suffering.
If one person has been killed in a fire, that's bad. If the fire killed two people, that's worse. If it killed 100 people, that's even worse.
There is no magical point where you say "Oh, there are 42 people that we could rescue, but we won't, because 600 people have been killed already and that somehow makes the rescue pointless".
If we can reduce suffering by just a bit, and delay the worst just a bit, then it's worth it.
Well it could be 45 at night. And it will be if wr dont tackle climate change quickly
Are we tackling anything in the last decade ?
Do people look at the ever increasing graph of CO2 emissions worldwide ?
It increased last year. It will increase this year.
Let's do our best to delay it but it's happening people.
Our politics are all cowards no matter the country.
Are we tackling anything in the last decade ?
If you e.g. look at power generation, then yes, that is being tackled. Incrementally and against a lot of resistance, from conservatives, fossil industries, nimbys, etc. Build-out rates for solar and wind worldwide are getting better. The last decade was not completely lost, it helped make these technologies cheaper and more scalable.
Do people look at the ever increasing graph of CO2 emissions worldwide ?
It is true, they do. And at face value, those rising emissions wouldn't be necessary, if climate change was given appropriate priority.
But we also have realistic projections that emissions will start falling before 2030.
Let's do our best to delay it but it's happening people.
Climate change is not binary. Rather there's a spectrum of outcomes. Of course climate change is happening and of course, the 1.5Β°C goal is unrealistic now (because we're basically there already we just can't say for sure yet). But it does matter that we do not make climate change even worse than it needs to be.
For relevance, here's one of those graphs: https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions
That tiny dent you see there is from Covid btw, which wrecked several of our economies, and that steep fall would have to continue all the way to 2035 for us to meet our actual climate targets. People who think we can tackle this are delusional and just don't want to accept the reality that we're heading towards.
I donβt agree.
It's definitely not late but it sure feels hopeless...
It sort of is because the actions we would have to take would cripple our economies and directly affect the people living in our rich nations. That's why there's constantly resistance against even the slightest bit of climate action, even if it is just a few wind turbines or solar panels, which is the bare fucking minimum. But god beware we also add co2 taxation on products and people lose their collective shits. You can see that barely anyone is ever voting for green parties and politicians who promote this shit, because it would directly affect them. You can see how people react towards activists who protest to have exactly those type of actions being taken. The majority does not care and that's a simple reality that we have to start to accept so that we can move towards more drastic steps to take.
Well off to Ireland then. Good thing Iβm into redheads no matter how Irish they look.
Good thing Ireland is so good at building new mass housing. Super cheap to live there, I hear.
Donβt worry about it. Everyone dies eventually, and most of US will be dead before it gets unlivable. Just enjoy the fall of humanity! Itβs gonna be a wild ride.
The most important part is that we made a few people really rich in the process
Wonder how many of these were in the last 2-3 years...
Not as many as I expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weather_records Freak weather situations do happen, but I'm quite sure averaged highs would nearly all be in the last 2-3 years.
Neat link!
There's another set of graphs on that page that do show we are setting more high temperature records and fewer low temperature records over time, which while not really what I was saying, is still relevant and interesting (and scary)
Glad you going it useful. Was looking for a picture or direct link to a list of the great record dates, but Wikipedia was what seemed the most current & reliable. There's no doubt earth is warming up; what I'm alarmed by is how tepid - if not outright kneecapped or pro more pollution - a lot of mankind's response to it has been...
How is Ireland 7C lower than the UK.
stable west winds from the open sea i'd guess.
Because of how Ireland is situated in relation to the Atlantic polar fronts. UK is basically blocked by Ireland with regards to those, so it doesn't benefit from them in the same way.
Please remember that France has islands near the Equator
Well, highest temp is from metropolitan France. In fact, highest temperature in oversea France there is at 40Β°C. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_temperatures_in_France
Sure, a few measurements from a small number of tiny, unimportant islands are going to prove that climate change isn't real, or whatever.
Anyway, why do you think they're talking about political Europe, not geographical Europe?
Sure, a few measurements from a small number of tiny, unimportant islands are going to prove that climate change isn't real, or whatever.
What?!?
Anyway, why do you think they're talking about political Europe, not geographical Europe?
Because there are borders and borders aren't geographical but political...
Im sure there was more than 39.5 in Poland
Don't worry, it's just a sun thing, it will be back to normal in about three years /s
Well, youβre right that these temperatures will be normal in three years.
What "NoNewNormal" should've been about.
Looks at the date of the post: 08-06-2011