this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024

506 points (99.2% liked)

politics

19089 readers

5061 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

• Register To Vote

• Citizenship Resource Center

• Congressional Awards Program

• Federal Government Agencies

• Library of Congress Legislative Resources

• The White House

• U.S. House of Representatives

• U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

• News

• World News

• Business News

• Political Discussion

• Ask Politics

• Military News

• Global Politics

• Moderate Politics

• Progressive Politics

• UK Politics

• Canadian Politics

• Australian Politics

• New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

outrageousmatter@lemmy.world

aidan@lemmy.world

jordanlund@lemmy.world

HLMenckenFan@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

506

The Satanic Temple is taking on the Christian right. It may be effective – it’s definitely fun to watch (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 3 weeks ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world

27 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Recognized as a religion by the IRS, the group uses the religious right’s tactics, and their victories, against them

Satan is a feminist now

The devil works hard, but the Republican party works harder. Not a day seems to go by without anti-abortion zealots on the right advancing some cunning new plan to strip women of their bodily autonomy. As well as shutting down abortion clinics, Republican states are trying to essentially outlaw abortion pills: on Friday, Missouri, Kansas and Idaho renewed a legal push to drastically reduce access to mifepristone.

Amid this hellscape, help may be at hand from a somewhat unlikely source: Satan. Or, to be more accurate – and since the devil is in the details – the Satanic Temple.

Founded in 2012, the Satanic Temple (which is not to be confused with the very different Church of Satan) is not about devil worship. Rather, it is about raising hell to fight for freedom from the religious right’s crusade to impose their beliefs on everyone else. “Right now, we have a minority religious theocratic movement, so entrenched in politics and getting away with whatever they want,” co-founder Lucien Greaves told the Guardian earlier this year.

all 28 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 101 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

It would be absolutely hilarious (and sad) if the abortion-as-a-sacrament effort takes off, and clinics in abortion-free states start becoming official Satanic Temple places of worship left and right, complete with minimal decorations and everything, clinic doctors as priests, things like that.

They'd probably have to win a court challenge first, but that could totally happen.

Like, what's the bare minimum for something to legally be considered a sacrament? What about a place of worship? What legal avenues can states even approach without running into a strong constitutional conflict? All these edge cases are fascinating to me, especially with how much of a headache they'll give state legislatures.

[–] can_you_change_your_username@fedia.io 61 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The effort is underway. Samuel Alito’s Mom’s Satanic Abortion Clinic is a Satanic abortion clinic in New Mexico that offers teleheath consultations and medication abortion through the mail.

https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/news/the-satanic-temple-unveils-tst-health-the-worlds-first-religious-abortion-clinic

[–] DancingBear@midwest.social 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

🤘

[–] ours@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

"All our satanic priests are busy at the moment, thank your for your patience, your call is important to us"

Metal music plays

[–] harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Metal covers of Imagine Dragons and Maroon 5, since it is hold music.

[–] rmuk@feddit.uk 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Thirty seconds of thrash drumming, wailing feedback and distorted guitar shredding, followed by Tall and tan and young and lovely...

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 52 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

clinics in abortion-free states start becoming official Satanic Temple places of worship left and right, complete with minimal decorations and everything, clinic doctors as priests, things like that.

why bother pretending that they're places of worship? religious hospitals and schools don't pretend to be places of worship and they apply their their prejudices anyways; so long as it they don't violate federal law.

just create a satanic hospital with an extremely generous obstetrics wings & laboratories and satanic obgyn schools.

they could even take this a step further and get trans people to identify as satanic and that their trans identification is an expression of religion; protected by law and invalidating any anti trans laws.

they could also apply this to library book bans by saying that the trans and gay books they're banning are texts sacred to their religion and must be displayed like the bible or the ten commandments.

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 57 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

why bother?

They need to go the extra mile, to make it as difficult as possible to challenge them legally. Christian hosptials and such aren't going to get invesigated or sued for being Christian hospitals, but the Satanic Temple won't get it easy anywhere.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago

then i hope that americans can rediscover religion quickly if kamala loses; amen. lol

[–] can_you_change_your_username@fedia.io 18 points 3 weeks ago

The Satanic Temple supports it's trans members using the same basis as it's stance on abortion. There are 7 fundamental tenets of Satanism. The third states that "One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone." and the fifth is "Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs." Based on these tenets it is the religious stance of TST that trans individuals have a fundamental religious right to decide what happens to their body and a religious obligation to reject unscientific claims and "treatments" with regard to their gender identity.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago

religious hospitals and schools don’t pretend to be places of worship and they apply their their prejudices anyways

They tend to have large congregations who donate enthusiastically to the local elected bigot bureaucrats in their city and state. The Satanic Temple as a loophole is cute, but there is no Congressman or Judge who relies on Satanic congregants to raise money or GOTV.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

abortion-as-a-sacrament effort takes off

It won't. The idea of "freedom of religion" in the US is a farce. People have tried to use this loophole for legal drug use ("The undisputed evidence demonstrates that permitting a religious exemption to laws that prohibit the use and possession of marijuana would hinder drug enforcement efforts statewide and negatively impact public health and safety"), get around rules for feeding and housing the homeless, sheltering undocumented migrants, and protesting war. With few exceptions, the state's claim to protecting "public health and safety" override all arguments around religious liberty.

Like, what’s the bare minimum for something to legally be considered a sacrament?

That's not the legal standard.

[–] Timecircleline@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago

Though the church still wins in this case, because those of Christian faith would be dissuaded even more from using the services, which lets more babies be born, which means god gets to collect those souls like pokemon cards.

The church is against abortion because the only way it survives is by having more babies born into the religion.

[–] solidgrue@lemmy.world 59 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Based TST. They do good work.

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago

I’ve been donating to them for a couple years now and I’m always pleased to be a part of it.

[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

Go Satan Go!

[–] sorval_the_eeter@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If you arent careful these Satanists will teach your children about STEM topics and tell them about their constitutional rights. Dont let this happen!

[–] solidgrue@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Won't someone PLEASE think about the jury nullification??

[–] Case@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 3 weeks ago

Donated and became a member for legal protection in a very red state.

I've grown differently from Satanism into other areas, but being able to produce a membership card for a legally recognized religion that isn't Christian has its perks in some work places.

Mainly, the group is LITIGIOUS as fuck. They will go to court for a person's employee rights. It wouldn't be the first time.

[–] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

I know people come in all shapes and sizes, but what is going on with that guy's legs and shoes. Like is it just a perspective thing? It looks like the shoes are photoshopped onto his legs or something.

[–] MediaBiasFactChecker@lemmy.world -5 points 3 weeks ago

Associated Press - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)

Information for Associated Press:

MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this source

The Guardian - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)

Information for The Guardian:

MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
Wikipedia about this source

Search topics on Ground.News

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/19/satanic-temple-fight-against-religious-right
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/04/friend-of-satan-how-lucien-greaves-and-his-satanic-temple-are-fighting-the-religious-right
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-pill-mifespristone-state-lawsuit-f03bfe0d9b9fc04e4c8b01a1c6d16851

Media Bias Fact Check | bot support

[+] Glifted@lemmy.world -21 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

You shouldn't support these people for reasons you probably wouldn't expect

[–] trevor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 20 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'm well aware of the fact that Lucien Graeves is a shitbag, but TST does great work in spite of that, and they're one of the only organizations that fight theistic nationalists in ways that actually bring attention to the issue.

Until a better group with unproblematic leadership comes along (maybe Global Order of Satan if they gain the resources to do similar activism?), I'd say it makes sense to critically support their work instead of dissuading people from supporting them at all.

[–] Mongostein@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Wanna give me the TLDW? Cuz that’s too long and I didn’t watch it.

[+] Glifted@lemmy.world -12 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

If you jump around the video Lucien Greaves' real name is Doug Misicko

List of problems surrounding TST in the video:

Anti-Semitism: around 13:00 Ties to the far-right: 17:14 Views on Eugenics: 20:08

I'll add more later. I don't exactly have the video memorized

[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 6 points 3 weeks ago

AFAICT, Mesner, not Misicko. Look at the legal filings, where they're incorporating TST-related entities, etc.; Doug and Cevin have to use their real, legal names on those documents.

The antisemitism you can kind of handwave, because it's hard to disentangle being opposed to Judaism as a religion, versus Jewish people. Mesner has been a little wishy-washy on that, but the most charitable way of reading it is that he's opposed to the religion, in the same way that he's opposed to Christianity, Islam, etc. It's just messier with Judaism because Jewish is both religion and ethnicity/cultural. (This, BTW, is the same way that people opposed to Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon get tarred as being antisemitic.)

Ties to the far right are probably valid.

Views on eugenics is... Complicated. Eugenics is, by itself, not really bad. Ashkanzi Jews have practiced eugenics to almsot entirely eliminate Tay-Sachs Syndrome in their communities, because marriages are arranged, and all couples go through genetic testing before being allowed to marry. You could do the same thing with sickle-cell anemia; test everyone before they get married, and couples that both have copies of the gene don't get married. OTOH, in both of those cases you're talking about specific, known genetic disease; most people that are in favor of eugenics aren't talking about eradicating genetic diseases, but are talking about very nebulous concepts of 'purity' or some such. E.g., blond hair/blue eyes ubermensch nonsense.

An immediate problem is that the org itself is deeply authoritarian, and numerous people that helped the org grow have been thrown out (or left) because they don't want a top-down leadership structure. Doug and Cevin--mostly Cevin--have total legal authority over the organization, and there's no mechanism in place to censure or remove them if they do things the membership disapproves of, or engage in misconduct.