this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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Unpopular Opinion

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No one is free from criticism. Harmful ideas should be condemned, when they are demonstrably harmful. But theist beliefs are such a vast range and diversity of ideas, some harmful, some useful, some healing, some vivifying, and still others having served as potent drivers of movements for justice; that to lump all theist religious belief into one category and attack the whole of it, only demonstrates your ignorance of theology, and is in fact bigotry.

By saying that religious and superstitious beliefs should be disrespected, or otherwise belittling, or stigmatizing religion and supernatural beliefs as a whole, you have already established the first level on the "Pyramid of Hate", as well as the first of the "10 Stages of Genocide."

If your religion is atheism, that's perfectly valid. If someone is doing something harmful with a religious belief as justification, that specific belief should be challenged. But if you're crossing the line into bigotry, you're as bad as the very people you're condemning.

Antitheism is a form of supremacy in and of itself.

"In other words, it is quite clear from the writings of the “four horsemen” that “new atheism” has little to do with atheism or any serious intellectual examination of the belief in God and everything to do with hatred and power.

Indeed, “new atheism” is the ideological foregrounding of liberal imperialism whose fanatical secularism extends the racist logic of white supremacy. It purports to be areligious, but it is not. It is, in fact, the twin brother of the rabid Christian conservatism which currently feeds the Trump administration’s destructive policies at home and abroad – minus all the biblical references."

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/5/4/the-resurrection-of-new-atheism/

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/2/21/can-atheists-make-their-case-without-devolving-into-bigotry/

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[–] MrJameGumb@lemmy.world 46 points 9 months ago (18 children)

It seems like you're saying no one is allowed to criticize religion as a whole, but only certain aspects of certain religions that you agree are "harmful".

The problem is that there are a growing number of people who find ALL religions to be harmful, and those people have a right to make their feelings known.

You are gaslighting people into believing that they are bigots for speaking out against bigoted religious practices. That sounds like you are the one with a problem

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[–] MuhammadJesusGaySex@lemmy.world 34 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (31 children)

There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do.

I was a heroin addict for over a decade. I am now clean, and even off the methadone. I purposefully avoided things like NA because I got myself clean. God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.

But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion. Think, abortion, and stem cell research. Good people get hurt when viewed through the lens of religion. Think LGBTQ, or people of a different religion.

In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.

[–] OtisRamflow@lemm.ee 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I went to some AA meetings at one point in my life. It's sickening to see people cheapen their success by thanking god, instead of their own willpower.

You made the decision, thank yourself, or the people around you.

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[–] Ibaudia@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

Couple of thoughts:

  1. Atheism is not a religion. Religion is defined by doctrine and rituals, atheism has neither. It is the absence of religion. Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.

  2. Antitheism typically stands on the ground that religion has been used to justify atrocities. It posits that religion is poisonous due to its effect on people and its ability to control their behavior to do irrational or evil things. Antitheism is not misanthropic in nature, nor is it trying to persecute people for their religion (at least not inherently), it is just the belief that a purely secular would would be more harmonious.

  3. The idea that a minority group like antitheists have started the beginning stages of a "genocide" against religious people just because they find their beliefs to be harmful is absurd, even at face value. Even atheists hold no institutional power anywhere in the world and antitheistic, hardline anti-religion beliefs tend to be fringe, even among atheists.

tl;dr - Generally disagree about everything

[–] amio@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.

I agree with most of your points, but I'm not sure I think it's fair.

While atheism/antitheism is obviously a belief, it is not "capital F Faith" in the usual religious sense. You have a "faith" in gravity and that it'll keep doing gravity things, which is based on measurable phenomena. The other kind, "just-have-faith/God works in mysterious ways" faith, is specifically based on the opposite, and is more akin to trust and hope. Trust and hope are great, but it does make the concepts fundamentally different. Equating the two is a very common occurrence that just so happens to either paint atheism/antitheism as a much more "random" belief, or paint theism as much more substantiated than it is, depending on perspective.

[–] Ibaudia@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

I agree that it's more of a semantics game. Religious faith is different from a faith in secular theories and hypotheses. One is based on superstition, while the other on reasonable probability. That said, the answer to the question "why do you believe in anything if knowledge can never be guaranteed" always ends up being some variation of "faith" in my experience, whether the beliefs are secular or religious, but I know there are those who disagree and/or will categorize these things differently based on their choice of language.

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[–] OtisRamflow@lemm.ee 12 points 9 months ago (5 children)

Atheism is not a religion. It's the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.

Atheism is not getting involved. Your whole thing then is really just pro-theist vs. Antitheist. I would say that even the most diehard anti-theists aren't invading other countries, jailing people, or beheading them for their beliefs.

Teasing religious people for their dick head beliefs, is a response to all the shitty things that have been done and are currently being done in the name of religion.

If you NEED religion to be a good person then you're not a good person. Every single shitty thing happening on the planet right now is directly related to greed, or religion. Yet you still think it's "bigotry" to call that out.

Fuck religion, and fuck a god that would sit and watch all this happen and do nothing. If god is real he's a real piece of shit.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

Atheism is not a religion. It’s the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.

The notion that "atheism is a religion" is so comical that I'd love to watch the brain sprain when people who spout that nonsense come across a legit, non-parody, atheistic religion.

So I'm not talking about the Temple of Satan types. Nor the Flying Spaghetti Monster types. Nor the myriad of other spoof religions. I'm talking a serious religion with a long history (it's older than Christianity) that is at the very least agnostic if not flat-out atheistic¹: 儒教 (which you'd know as Confucianism).

So here we have a religion that is either agnostic or atheistic. Kind of hinting that atheism and religion are separate axes.


¹ "You are not yet able to serve men, how can you serve spirits?" was 孔夫子's (Confucius') stance on paying homage to gods.

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[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Atheism isn't a religion. Full stop. From that one statement you made the rest is safely dismissible.

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[–] xc2215x@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

Calling it bigotry is a stretch.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (31 children)

Religious belief is a voluntary characteristic. Why should that not be considered when judging someone's character?

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[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

If your religion is atheism

Not a thing, not how it works, and only serves to show your ignorance.

as well as the first of the “10 Stages of Genocide.”

Lets fucking go boys! We can start with the religious extremists funding al jazeera.

[–] ef9357@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 9 months ago (5 children)

We’re ALL born atheist. Belief is voluntary.

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[–] Miclux@lemmings.world 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

I would rather believe in a fairy tale book about a unicorn farting rainbows than the bible, quarn and other bs.

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[–] DreamySweet@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

There is a difference between criticizing a religion, criticizing all religion, and hating or mocking religious people. The first two are okay, the third is not.

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago (10 children)

Hating and mocking people who want to kill you seems fine to me.

The OPs whole post is supported/predicated on those links, and what a surprise, would you look at who funds aljazeera!

is a Qatari state-owned[a] Arabic-language international news television network

I wonder what Qatar think about atheists?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

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[–] blazera@kbin.social 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

religion is just the opposite of science. Science is evidence based beliefs, religion is faith, or rather belief with lack of evidence.

It's just in an awkward phase right now where science has proven itself as correct and religious people warp their beliefs to try and fit it. Liiiike, folks shaving their beards. Science says it's fine, people have shaved plenty of times, with no ill effects. Religion says it's bad, it will anger God. People still call themselves religious while shaving their beards, despite the singular source of their religious belief explicitly saying otherwise. Bible praises the efficacy of prayer to quite an extent, turns out that's a testable hypothesis. How many religious people do you know that would bet money on prayer affecting the outcome of a study? People in developed countries stopped believing we should be stoning homosexuals to death, but the books never changed, all those words are still there, they're just ignored now. Oh but it's still the infallible word of God.

[–] QuaffPotions@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)
[–] Bizarroland@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

And religion is not the opposite of science.

Science is the formalized study of nature.

The supernatural is the opposite of science.

Gods are by choice or by default supernatural in nature.

Religion itself is the organized practice by which worshipers converge to worship a god or to study and practice the supernatural.

We know religion exists whereas whether or not a God exists of any type whatsoever is up for debate and not scientifically provable.

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