Egg prime directive : microblogmemes

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 91 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Not to "true scotsman" this, but the egg prime directive isn't saying you can't have those conversations with people.

This person notably didn't say "my trans friends told me I was an egg, so I tried HRT just to shut them up." It sounds like they were aware it was an option through conversations where it wasn't pushed at them. This person made their own choice.

The egg prime directive is saying that you don't get to declare someone else's identity for them. You don't get to make that choice for them. It's about consent.

I think most of us would agree that it would be abhorrent to tell someone who is asexual that they just haven't found the right partner yet and clearly they're homosexual (or straight or bi) in denial. I see it as the same thing.

And the online culture of labelling other people as eggs is so far removed from the concept of "trying to help someone figure out who they are" that I have a very hard time taking this in good faith. C'mon, of course there are different rules for socialization online vs in person vs with friends.

[–] aberrate_junior_beatnik@midwest.social 35 points 3 days ago (1 children)

This person notably didn’t say “my trans friends told me I was an egg, so I tried HRT just to shut them up.”

She kind of did, though? She says there were trans people who "WOULD NOT SHUT UP", so she obtained E and tried it "just to prove it wouldnt help" (second to last post in the screenshot)

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 days ago

I felt it was vague enough for the sake of the argument.

End of the day: there are different social rules for different environments. A group of friends, where you know the people involved, is not the situation the egg prime directive is meant for.

[+] nomugisan@lemmy.dbzer0.com -6 points 3 days ago (5 children)

The egg prime directive makes zero sense in a world of cisnormativity where nobody is allowed to explore gender and arrive at the conclusion that they are, indeed, cis.

Instead, everyone is cis by default, and for some reason some people on the internet decided it was evil to suggest to people showing non-cis traits or behaviors that they, indeed, may not be cis. Sometimes, if someone who insists they're cisgender hangs out with trans people, knows all the trans lingo and has opposite sex OCs and fantasies about being the opposite sex, you've gotta throw a reality check their way. It would be murder not to.

[–] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 26 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're mis-stating the egg prime directive and then arguing that your mis-statement is bad. Which is kind of like a FART mis-stating the trans agenda as "wanting to let boys play girls sports if they wear a skirt for a day."

(Not to mention the whole cis/trans split papers over the absurd number of various "nonbinary" options.)

The egg prime directive is simply "don't declare someone else as trans.". Tell them it's OK to be trans. Ask them if they are trans. Even go so far as to suggest that they might be, if you know the person and they are struggling.

Just don't try lecturing someone else on their gender.

[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The egg prime directive is simply "don't declare someone else as trans.". Tell them it's OK to be trans.

What does that have to do with Star Trek? The other definition actually makes sense as a reference.

[–] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

The star trek prime directive is essentially "every species has the right to develop their own culture.". Which nicely mirrors an EPD phrasing of "every person had the right to develop their own gender."

If we instead go with a phrasing like "never interfere with pre-warp societies", we'd need to add on bits about "except when they're about to die" or "except when the fate of the galaxy is at stake".or "except if you know them really well", and have a codicil for the similar principle where warp-capable species also get to do their own thing.

Here's a useful starting point I found from a five minute web search, which helpfully has pointers to where the author believes the term originates.

https://isaacg1.github.io/2024/10/14/caring-about-eggs.html

[–] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

~~The name, Egg Prime Directive, is a reference to the Prime Directive in Star Trek.~~

I have misunderstood the question.

[–] CommissarVulpin@lemmy.world 19 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

I think, though, some people are too eager to throw out what they think is a reality check. Like in the post above, some are terrified of letting other trans people suffer (rightfully so), so they paint with too broad a brush and insist that someone must simply be in denial. I watched MLP, I like cute art and flowers and scented candles, and make female characters in video games because they get better fashion options. Does that mean I’m trans and denying it? No, it doesn’t.

It’s a delicate topic, and I won’t deny that there is a lot of stigma and social momentum against having these kinds of honest conversations about oneself. I’m just afraid that young people who are still trying to figure out who they are might get the wrong idea about themselves if people keep insisting that because you might like the color pink you must therefore be trans.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I watched MLP

I watched MLP with my daughters. I've come to the conclusion that the show is basically Star Trek: TNG for little girls, complete with Q. It really is surprisingly good, despite the frilly aesthetic.

[–] SaltSong@startrek.website 6 points 3 days ago

That is . . . Distressingly accurate.

[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The prime directive doesn't apply to you. You already questioned your gender and found the truth. In Star Trek terms, you're a warp-capable society. Even if you decided to stay on your home planet.

The egg prime directive is, according to the name, about hiding information from people who haven't thought about it.

The cost of misgendering a cis person is that they feel weird. The cost of maintaining the prime directive for an egg is they might commit suicide.

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

The cost of misgendering a cis person is that they feel weird.

Let's be clear that is an assumption. I understand that there is a shit ton of fake astroturfing going on, but not every single story of detransistioning is lies.

For a more personal experience point to this:

When I was a teen, transness wasn't really talked about, so a cis male being un-masculine "had to" mean they were gay.

Cards on the table, I'm bisexual. But only for a single digit number of men. I'm effectively cishet.

But with how many times I heard that I must be gay, from bullies, from well meaning folks, from strangers... it added significant additional turmoil to my toughest times as a teen. Suicidal ideation tough times.

And now, over a decade and a half later, I'm still not a particularly masculine man in a standard ass cishet marriage with a kid. And I'm happy and comfortable in my identity.

So I have a tough time hearing this repeated narrative of "there's no downsides!"

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 3 days ago (3 children)

The assumption that demonstrating traits not aligned with your gender must make you the other gender is silly, short sighted, needlessly restrictive of potential identities, and in and of itself dangerous. Full stop.

That is the same logic used years back to argue that men who were not traditionally masculine had to be gay. That causes harm as well. Harm I've experienced through bullying, ostracization, etc. After hearing that assumption of my sexuality enough times, I suffered confusion about my identity as a teen. Now people are arguing that somehow using that same logic but now it means you're trans?

I cannot make this any clearer: Present people with their options and allow them to make their own damn choices.

Over a decade later I'm still not particularly masculine, and I am happy in a cishet marriage with a child I am proud to be a father to. Yeah, I'm technically bisexual. I have a single digit number of men I've encountered in my 30+ years that I could go for, but I'm not gay which was the identity prescribed to me.

When even the most generous studies show trans people as making up a single digit percentage of the population, it's silly to argue that there is an intrinsic problem with CIS being the default.

The problem is when people don't understand that not being cis is an option. Or when they don't leave options open. Don't conflate that with the fact that good or bad, cis is factually overwhelmingly the default.

If people are allowed to be whatever they wish (and they should be) then there is room for people who are cis but display traits not aligned with that.

Tomboys exist. Women who demonstrate traditionally masculine traits but are still women. There are also trans men, who may have done the same pre-transistion but are men. There has to be room for both.

Not entirely sure what the term would be, but feminine men exist who are still men and are not trans. There are also trans women.

All of those identities ae valid. Assuming trans because non-conformity is just setting a new needlessly restrictive default.

Lastly, once again I must emphasize that:

your example of someone in a group of friends is NOT what the egg prime directive is about.

Different fucking social situations call for different rules and approaches. For fucks sake.

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 3 days ago

Not entirely sure what the term would be, but feminine men exist who are still men and are not trans. There are also trans women.

as one, I'm cool with the term femboy. I think there's still a few people who'd have an issue with the term, but we kinda have our own subculture established and everything at this point, so feels like a strong contender for the label.

[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

When even the most generous studies show trans people as making up a single digit percentage of the population, it's silly to argue that there is an intrinsic problem with CIS being the default.

That's disgusting.

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Sure, the way I worded that is. Especially when divorced from the rest of that section.

But I hope it is clear from the rest of that section that I'm drawing a line to separate the idea of CIS = majority default vs. the attitude that CIS is the only valid option.

CIS being the majority default is just reality. Statistics.

CIS being the only valid option is bullshit.

When distilling concepts like that into the shorter statement "cisnormativity is a problem", I feel that nuance is lost. The almost immediate follow up question is "Do you have a problem with CIS people being the norm/majority default, or do you have a problem with the fact that they are the norm/majority default is being used by some to suppress the validity of other options?"

[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago

All babies are agender. They don't have a gender identity, because they don't know what it is yet. If you're gonna have a default, which is stupid, why not make it what everyone starts as?

[–] nomugisan@lemmy.dbzer0.com -4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Yeah, cishet man, tell me how to interact in different social situations. Please tell me more about how cisnormativity isn't killing trans people left and right.

[–] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 3 days ago

And there it is. It almost always comes down to "cishet bad".

Look. I almost killed myself over how many times I was told I had to be gay growing up when I wasn't. Often by well meaning people. Please don't turn transness into the new default label for people who aren't gender conforming.

[–] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago

Amazing how the cis people will tell trans people how to behave, but won't let trans people tell cis people how to behave.

I wonder why cis people get that privilege...

[–] unhrpetby@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

...decided it was evil to suggest to people showing non-cis traits or behaviors that they, indeed, may not be cis.

From the sources I found, most people take the "Egg Prime Directive" to mean asserting someone's identify is wrong, not suggesting explanations for how they feel.

[–] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago

If someone didn't "violate" the egg prime directive, I probably wouldn't consider myself a form of enby. All thanks to a queer group on discord.

I'll gladly take a violation of it to help people feel comfortable than making people feel uncomfortable because no one wants to talk about it.

[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

As a Trek fan, I think the term "egg prime directive" itself is bad and causes miscommunication. The people who are pro-EPD seem to mostly argue the EPD is about not dictating to people what their gender is, while people who are anti-EPD say the EPD is about not mentioning the possibility that someone could be trans at all.

Taking everyone at their word, it seems like people are interpreting the egg prime directive differently. If pro-EPD people really do think it's okay to suggest/ask if someone has considered if they might be trans, and the only thing forbidden is explicitly dictating "you ARE trans", I think the prime directive analogy is a bit misleading and might be part of the issue.

The prime directive is very dogmatic at times and basically says that you can't interact with prewarp civs period. Following the metaphor, it suggests that you aren't allowed to talk about being trans at all with potential eggs until they crack their own egg first. Based on that, I can see where the OOP is getting their interpretation from.

[–] match@pawb.social 3 points 3 days ago

we need to call a council to get the EPD written down

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

i thought the egg prime directive was to not tell ppl like femboys that they are trans, not people who show signs

lemme double check

edit 1: didn't find the answer yet but APPARENTLY it's another damn Star Trek reference. Not important but funny.

edit2:

u/maybe_me_mi 1y ago Bisexual-Transgender

The egg prime directive is not about answering questions or helping when asked for help, but for telling you, when you are not asking for it. Because the chances are very high, that you do not believe the person, and are building even more egg shell then before. If the person comes to you and ask you: Might I be trans, you can freely answer maybe, but I help you figure out. But approching you and telling you without you asking for input, that chances are very very high, that you are saying: no, never - mayne even feel mocked - and start building the next layer of your shell and even break the relationship, so you are not there to help, if you are needed.

I have a cousin, she is trans too, and her reaction to my comeing out was: I could have told you ten years ago. I was angry, did not understand why she did not told me, but she was right, I would not believe her.

Seems the line between helping someone self discover and outright TELLING someone they are trans are different things.
I think it's just a general "don't outright tell someone, but help them if they need it" kinda thing?

still confused. Can someone who knows more help?

[–] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Maybe treat every person as an individual with their own needs and sensitivities? Make your choice based on the people you're talking to, not randos on the internet who are probably AI engagement farms anyways.

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Maybe treat every person as an individual with their own needs and sensitivities?

I agree, that's what I took away from it. (see the paragraph after the quote)

not randos on the internet

It's better to learn from other people's experiences and not run into issues that you could have avoided from learning beforehand.

[–] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago

I agree is good to learn from other people.

I just wanted to highlight that whenever you're talking to someone on the internet it's a 50/50 it's an actual human, and then a 50/50 they are being honest.

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Egg prime directive?

[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

it’s the idea that, if you see a presumably cis person acting in a non-cis way (ex: a presumed straight man longing for a lesbian relationship), you should NOT tell them that they may be trans and instead let them figure it out. at most, nudge them in the right direction.

as you can see, it’s a controversial idea in the trans community.

[–] SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

What I have heard is, don't insist that a cis-identifying person is trans. Especially don't butt in, say, over the internet when you don't know them.

If someone says "I wish I was a lesbian" it would be ok to say "That's an option, you know 😉" but not ok to say "You're a trans woman in denial"

[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 3 days ago

yea i agree, suggesting that someone think about being trans is cool, assigning an identity to them isn’t

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Ok so my brain is having a really difficult time processing that.

I understand the "you should not tell them that. They should figure it out on their own at most nudge them in the right direction."

What i don't understand is the "cis person behaving in non-cis ways."

Like I was born male, feel male, look male. I'm very much attracted to women.

But I also hate sports,typical masculine activities, and in general hate hanging out with other men. As a result, my social interactions seems to mirror what would be seen more between women than men. But I'm certainly not a woman. No part of me feels like a woman. No part of me looks like a woman. I don't fantasize about being a woman.

This is a foreign concept to me.

Also why call it "egg" prime directive? Seems a little deragotory for someone who isn't out yet.

[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 3 days ago

yea, your judgement of "is this person showing sings that they might be trans?" is subjective and can be wrong, that’s one of the reasons why people argue for the egg prime directive

and the reason it’s called "egg" is just because that’s slang for a trans person who is unaware/in denial that they are trans

[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 days ago

I'm convinced.

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