this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2025
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Big brain tech dude got yet another clueless take over at HackerNews etc? Here's the place to vent. Orange site, VC foolishness, all welcome.

This is not debate club. Unless it’s amusing debate.

For actually-good tech, you want our NotAwfulTech community

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Need to let loose a primal scream without collecting footnotes first? Have a sneer percolating in your system but not enough time/energy to make a whole post about it? Go forth and be mid: Welcome to the Stubsack, your first port of call for learning fresh Awful you’ll near-instantly regret.

Any awful.systems sub may be subsneered in this subthread, techtakes or no.

If your sneer seems higher quality than you thought, feel free to cut’n’paste it into its own post — there’s no quota for posting and the bar really isn’t that high.

The post Xitter web has spawned soo many “esoteric” right wing freaks, but there’s no appropriate sneer-space for them. I’m talking redscare-ish, reality challenged “culture critics” who write about everything but understand nothing. I’m talking about reply-guys who make the same 6 tweets about the same 3 subjects. They’re inescapable at this point, yet I don’t see them mocked (as much as they should be)

Like, there was one dude a while back who insisted that women couldn’t be surgeons because they didn’t believe in the moon or in stars? I think each and every one of these guys is uniquely fucked up and if I can’t escape them, I would love to sneer at them.

(Credit and/or blame to David Gerard for starting this.)

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[–] nfultz@awful.systems 9 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

https://www.profgalloway.com/ice-age/ Good post until I hit the below:

Instead of militarizing immigration enforcement, we should be investing against the real challenge: AI. The World Economic Forum says 9 million jobs globally may be displaced in the next five years. Anthropic’s CEO warns AI could eliminate half of all entry-level white-collar jobs. Imagine the population of Greece storming the shores of America and taking jobs (even jobs Americans actually want), as they’re willing to work 24/7 for free. You’ve already met them. Their names are GPT, Claude, and Gemini.

Having a hard time imagining 300 but AI myself, Scott. Could we like, not shoehorn AI into every other discussion?

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 7 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Iirc Galloway was a pro cryptocurrency guy. So this tracks

E: imagine if the 3d printer people had the hype machine behind them like this. 'China better watch out, soon all manufacturing of products will be done by people at home'. Meanwhile China: [Laughs in 大跃进].

[–] fullsquare@awful.systems 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

yeah lol ez just 3dprint polypropylene polymerization reactor. what the fuck is hastelloy?

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 2 points 3 hours ago

Yeah, but we never got that massive hype cycle for 3d printers. Which in a way is a bit odd, as it could have happend. Nanomachine! Star trek replicators! (Getting a bit offtopic from Galloway being a cryptobro).

[–] gerikson@awful.systems 11 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (2 children)

Here's an example of normal people using Bayes correctly (rationally assigning probabilities and acting on them) while rats Just Don't Get Why Normies Don't Freak Out:

For quite a while, I've been quite confused why (sweet nonexistent God, whyyyyy) so many people intuitively believe that any risk of a genocide of some ethnicity is unacceptable while being… at best lukewarm against the idea of humanity going extinct.

(Dude then goes on to try to game-theorize this, I didn't bother to poke holes in it)

The thing is, genocides have happened, and people around the world are perfectly happy to advocate for it in diverse situations. Probability wise, the risk of genocide somewhere is very close to 1, while the risk of "omnicide" is much closer to zero. If you want to advocate for eliminating something, working to eliminating the risk of genocide is much more rational than working to eliminate the risk of everyone dying.

At least on commenter gets it:

Most people distinguish between intentional acts and shit that happens.

(source)

Edit never read the comments (again). The commenter referenced above obviously didn't feel like a pithy one liner adhered to the LW ethos, and instead added an addendum wondering why people were more upset about police brutality killing people than traffic fatalities. Nice "save", dipshit.

[–] lagrangeinterpolator@awful.systems 9 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Hmm, should I be more worried and outraged about genocides that are happening at this very moment, or some imaginary scifi scenario dreamed up by people who really like drawing charts?

One of the ways the rationalists try to rebut this is through the idiotic dust specks argument. Deep down, they want to smuggle in the argument that their fanciful scenarios are actually far more important than real life issues, because what if their scenarios are just so bad that their weight overcomes the low probability that they occur?

(I don't know much philosophy, so I am curious about philosophical counterarguments to this. Mathematically, I can say that the more they add scifi nonsense to their scenarios, the more that reduces the probability that they occur.)

[–] fullsquare@awful.systems 7 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

reverse dust specks: how many LWers would we need to permanently deprive of access to internet to see rationalist discourse dying out?

[–] swlabr@awful.systems 6 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

What’s your P(that question has been asked at a US three letter agency)

[–] fullsquare@awful.systems 8 points 11 hours ago

it either was, or wasn't, so 50%

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 8 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

Recently, I've realized that there is a decent explanation for why so many people believe that - if we model them as operating under a strict zero-sum game model of the world… ‘everyone loses’ is basically an incoherent statement - as a best approximation it would either denote no change and therefore be morally neutral, or an equal outcome, and would therefore be preferable to some.

Yes, this is why people think that. This is a normal thought to think others have.

[–] bitofhope@awful.systems 5 points 4 hours ago

Here's my unified theory of human psychology, based on the assumption most people believe in the Tooth Fairy and absolutely no other unstated bizarre and incorrect assumptions no siree!

[–] o7___o7@awful.systems 8 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Why do these guys all sound like deathnote, but stupid?

[–] dgerard@awful.systems 7 points 8 hours ago

because they cribbed their ideas from deathnote, and they're stupid

[–] zogwarg@awful.systems 5 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I mean if you want to be exceedingly generous (I sadly have my moments), this is actually remarkably close to the "intentional acts" and "shit happens" distinction, in a perverse Rationalist way. ^^

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 2 points 6 hours ago

Thats fair, if you want to be generous, if you are not going to be Id say there are still conceptually large differences between the quote and "shit happens". But yes, you are right. If only they had listened to Scott when he said "talk less like robots"

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 8 points 16 hours ago (3 children)

Somebody found a relevant reddit post:

Dr. Casey Fiesler ‪@cfiesler.bsky.social‬ (who has clippy earrings in a video!) writes: " This is fascinating: reddit link

Someone “worked on a book with ChatGPT” for weeks and then sought help on Reddit when they couldn’t download the file. Redditors helped them realized ChatGPT had just been roleplaying/lying and there was no file/book…"

[–] ebu@awful.systems 8 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

you have to scroll through the person's comments to find it, but it does look they did author the body of the text and uploaded it as a docx into ChatGPT. so points for actually creating something unlike the AI bros

it looks like they tried to use ChatGPT to improve narration. to what degree the token smusher has decided to rewrite their work in the smooth, recycled plastic feel we've all come to know and despise remains unknown

they did say they are trying to get it to generate illustrations for all 700 pages, and moreover appear[ed] to believe it can "work in the background" on individual chapters with no prompting. they do seem to have been educated on the folly of expecting this to work, but as blakestacey's other reply pointed out, they appear to now be just manually prompting one page at a time. godspeed

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 4 points 3 hours ago

They now deleted their post and I assume a lot of others, but they also claim they have no time to really write and just wanted a collection of stories for their kid(s). Which doesnt make sense, creating 700 pages of kids stories is a lot of work, even if you let a bot improve the flow. Unless they just stole a book of children's stories from somewhere. (I know these books exist, as a child from one of my brothers tricked me into reading two stories from one).

[–] blakestacey@awful.systems 11 points 10 hours ago

After understanding a lot of things it’s clear that it didn’t. And it fooled me for two weeks.

I have learned my lesson and now I am using it to generate one page at a time.

qu1j0t3 replies:

that's, uh, not really the ideal takeaway from this lesson

[–] fullsquare@awful.systems 6 points 9 hours ago

looks like there's either downvote brigade keeping critical comments at +1 or 0, or reddit brigading countermeasures went on in defense of wittle promprfondler

[–] BlueMonday1984@awful.systems 5 points 15 hours ago

New post from Matthew Hughes: People Are The Point, effectively a manifesto against gen-AI as a concept.

[–] o7___o7@awful.systems 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Better Offline was rough this morning in some places. Props to Ed for keeping his cool with the guests.

[–] TinyTimmyTokyo@awful.systems 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Oof, that Hollywood guest (Brian Koppelman) is a dunderhead. "These AI layoffs actually make sense because of complexity theory". "You gotta take Eliezer Yudkowsky seriously. He predicted everything perfectly."

I looked up his background, and it turns out he's the guy behind the TV show "Billions". That immediately made him make sense to me. The show attempts to lionize billionaires and is ultimately undermined not just by its offensive premise but by the world's most block-headed and cringe-inducing dialog.

Terrible choice of guest, Ed.

[–] lagrangeinterpolator@awful.systems 10 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I study complexity theory and I'd like to know what circuit lower bound assumption he uses to prove that the AI layoffs make sense. Seriously, it is sad that the people in the VC techbro sphere are thought to have technical competence. At the same time, they do their best to erode scientific institutions.

[–] BigMuffN69@awful.systems 3 points 7 hours ago

My hot take has always been that current Boolean-SAT/MIP solvers are probably pretty close to theoretical optimality for problems that are interesting to humans & AI no matter how "intelligent" will struggle to meaningfully improve them. Ofc I doubt that Mr. Hollywood (or Yud for that matter) has actually spent enough time with classical optimization lore to understand this. Computer go FOOM ofc.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Only way I can make the link between complexity theory and laying off people is thinking about putting people in 'can solve up to this level of problem' style complexity classes (which regulars here should realize gets iffy fast). So hope he explained it more than that.

[–] BlueMonday1984@awful.systems 5 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

The only complexity theory I know of is the one which tries to work out how resource-intensive certain problems are for computers, so this whole thing sounds iffy right from the get-go.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 4 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

Yeah but those resource-intensive problems can be fitted into specific classes of problems (P, NP, PSPACE etc), which is what I was talking about, so we are talking about the same thing.

So under my imagined theory you can classify people as 'can solve: [ P, NP, PSPACE, ... ]'. Wonder what they will do with the P class. (Wait, what did Yarvin want to do with them again?)

[–] aio@awful.systems 4 points 6 hours ago

solve this sokoban or you're fired

[–] lagrangeinterpolator@awful.systems 7 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

There's really no good way to make any statements about what problems LLMs can solve in terms of complexity theory. To this day, LLMs, even the newfangled "reasoning" models, have not demonstrated that they can reliably solve computational problems in the first place. For example, LLMs cannot reliably make legal moves in chess and cannot reliably solve puzzles even when given the algorithm. LLM hypesters are in no position to make any claims about complexity theory.

Even if we have AIs that can reliably solve computational tasks (or, you know, just use computers properly), it still doesn't change anything in terms of complexity theory, because complexity theory concerns itself with all possible algorithms, and any AI is just another algorithm in the end. If P != NP, it doesn't matter how "intelligent" your AI is, it's not solving NP-hard problems in polynomial time. And if some particularly bold hypester wants to claim that AI can efficiently solve all problems in NP, let's just say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Koppelman is only saying "complexity theory" because he likes dropping buzzwords that sound good and doesn't realize that some of them have actual meanings.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 2 points 1 hour ago

Yeah but I was trying to combine complexity theory as a loose theory misused by tech people in relation to 'people who get fired'. (Not that I don't appreciate your post btw, I sadly have not seen any pro-AI people be real complexity theory cranks re the capabilities. I have seen an anti be a complexity theory crank, but that is only when I reread my own posts ;) ).

[–] o7___o7@awful.systems 7 points 10 hours ago

I heard him say "quantum" and immediately came here looking for fresh-baked sneers

Yeah, that guy was a real piece of work, and if I had actually bothered to watch The Bear before, I would stop doing so in favor of sending ChatGPT a video of me yelling in my kitchen and ask it if what is depicted was the plot of the latest episode.

[–] HedyL@awful.systems 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I have been thinking about the true cost of running LLMs (of course, Ed Zitron and others have written about this a lot).

We take it for granted that large parts of the internet are available for free. Sure, a lot of it is plastered with ads, and paywalls are becoming increasingly common, but thanks to economies of scale (and a level of intrinsic motivation/altruism/idealism/vanity), it still used to be viable to provide information online without charging users for every bit of it. Same appears to be true for the tools to discover said information (search engines).

Compare this to the estimated true cost of running AI chatbots, which (according to the numbers I'm familiar with) may be tens or even hundreds of dollars a month for each user. For this price, users would get unreliable slop, and this slop could only be produced from the (mostly free) information that is already available online while disincentivizing creators from producing more of it (because search engine driven traffic is dying down).

I think the math is really abysmal here, and it may take some time to realize how bad it really is. We are used to big numbers from tech companies, but we rarely break them down to individual users.

Somehow reminds me of the astronomical cost of each bitcoin transaction (especially compared to the tiny cost of processing a single payment through established payment systems).

The big shift in per-action cost is what always seems to be missing from the conversation. Like, in a lot of my experience the per-request cost is basically negligible compared to the overhead of running the service in general. With LLMs not only do we see massive increases in overhead costs due to the training process necessary to build a usable model, each request that gets sent has a higher cost. This changes the scaling logic in ways that don't appear to be getting priced in or planned for in discussions of the glorious AI technocapital future

[–] corbin@awful.systems 7 points 1 day ago

I've done some of the numbers here, but don't stand by them enough to share. I do estimate that products like Cursor or Claude are being sold at roughly an 80-90% discount compared to what's sustainable, which is roughly in line with what Zitron has been saying, but it's not precise enough for serious predictions.

Your last paragraph makes me think. We often idealize blockchains with VMs, e.g. Ethereum, as a global distributed computer, if the computer were an old Raspberry Pi. But it is Byzantine distributed; the (IMO excessive) cost goes towards establishing a useful property. If I pick another old computer with a useful property, like a radiation-hardened chipset comparable to a Gamecube or G3 Mac, then we have a spectrum of computers to think about. One end of the spectrum is fast, one end is cheap, one end is Byzantine, one end is rad-hardened, etc. Even GPUs are part of this; they're not that fast, but can act in parallel over very wide data. In remarkably stark contrast, the cost of Transformers on GPUs doesn't actually go towards any useful property! Anything Transformers can do, a cheaper more specialized algorithm could have also done.

[–] TinyTimmyTokyo@awful.systems 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (6 children)

Sex pest billionaire Travis Kalanick says AI is great for more than just vibe coding. It's also great for vibe physics.

[–] paco@infosec.exchange 6 points 1 day ago

@TinyTimmyTokyo He has more dollars than sense, as they say. (Funnier if you say it out loud)
@blakestacey

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