The only thing that I understand is that this war ages for too long, that there were too many casualties and that everything is not black and white, especially for this conflict. Just stop it ffs
this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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Mate, it's been longer than 10 years. It's like you started watching GoT in season 8
The only objective response to this discussion is to admit that there is absolutely no objectivity possible in this debate.
The world is neatly divided into two people, those who are with Israel and those who are with the Palestinians.
You want proof, paste some of the comments here into a mainstream sub on reddit and watch the shit storm unfold.
What hamas did, what started this war, was absolutely unforgivable, horrendous and barbaric. It's impossible to support that organisation in any way anymore.
What Israel did which led to this over the last 10 years was stupid and very discriminatory. The amount of violence against the palistinian people during the last decade is well documented and inexcusable. Which could only lead to a violent reaction. (illegal settlements, violence against palistinians, discrimination, withholding electricity and water)
The rise to (political) power of hamas was a, self defeating victory. It made the position of the palistinian people worse, not better.
The return of Netanyahu, a convicted criminal if im not mistaken is baffling and unexplainable to any outsider.
The position of the west in this whole mess should at least raise an eye brow of the voters of our democracies.
Israels reaction to hamas' horrific action is completely out of proportion and the attack on the hospital was very wrong in every way. The amount of "weapons" found there means nothing in a war zone. It's quite possible that the weapons shown are personal sidearms of wounded palistinian fighters dropped off at the hospital.
The Israeli involvement in Syria seems to be aimed at kicking syria while its down so it stays down. This helps current Israeli military security but it's very short sighted.
Israeli mossad actions (killings of scientist etc.) abroad (iran, etc.) while understandable from a military standpoint do not further the Israeli cause. Short term it increased Israeli military security but long term it has great repercussions. It eroded the trustworthiness of Israel to SA levels.
Israel is on the stupid path for at least the last decade. Ditto Hamas. Hamas especially should be smarter since they're clearly the less powerful of the two. Israel should be much smarter then this looking at the history of the Jewish people and their state.
To me it seems nobody really red and understood the koran, the tanakh or the teachings of christ in whichever form.
But they do use those as an excuse to kill each other. Which is weird.
So.... Putting this all together I can say nothing. Looking at it from western Europe i see a gigantic mess which can only end in tears and genocide. Nobody is willing to give in, so blood will continue to flow. Until there is none left.
What I can say is: Pax Americana and the European stability will end, somewhere in the next century. While unfortunately for me personally as a European there are very clear markers all around us (if you want to see them, that is) that the current stability/status quo which exist since ww2 will not last.
Israel should take that into account. Plan for a viable future without american and European support. I don't see that. I only see very short term reactionary policies.
The goal of Israel here is ethnic cleansing with a minimum of fuss. The more Palestinians are killed, the more fuss there is - Israel's primary goal is to apply pressure (by, so far, killing 1 out of every 200 Gazans) to force them to leave and other countries to accept the population.
Why to you think Israel's goal would be ethnic cleansing, that doesn't make sense!?
The ratio of combatant to civilian casualties in Gaza appears to be fairly typical for modern urban warfare. For example, here are the numbers for the USA in the first battle of Fallujah:
Approximately two hundred insurgents were believed to have been killed. The number of civilian deaths are impossible to fully know because of the lack of access to the city and enemy interests in increasing figures. Some estimates are as low as 220 while others estimate approximately six hundred, with half of those thought to be women and children.
The number of Hamas fighters killed is in the thousands, so the data we have is consistent with the 1:1 to 1:3 ratio of combatant to civilian casualties seen in Fallujah.