this was pretty bad. it was bad enough that even back then you had people pointing out how bad it was. it was so bad that various states passed laws so that it would be against the law, going forward.

the textbook's point is that even though this wasn't common place, it was somewhat taken for granted.

i can kind of understand somethings. like how it was probably far more common back then for people to be married by the ages of 15-18. i can get that. but the case of Johns and Eunice, it was shocking even then. that should tell you something.

that thing being that Johns was a pedophile.

[–] UnpopularCrow@lemmy.world 44 points 11 months ago

I agree. It was certainly more common for child marriages but not that extreme. That guy was definitely a pedo. If you are buying your wife a doll for her wedding present you need to rethink your life choices.

[–] FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world 34 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Ok, this may be wrong history but I could have sworn I saw some article a few years ago explaining that this marriage happened because it was the middle of the great depression and her parents couldn't afford to feed her or something like that.

Makes it worse, imo.

That said, was he a pedo? If sex happened then obviously yes, but I thought this marriage was a charity case more so than a "indulge a pedo who's interested in our daughter during the depression" situation...

I'm gonna have to go find that article at some point...

Edit: welp, I went looking for it, couldn't find it, so everything above this line may be bullshit, but based on the age she had her first child at, yeah I'd say that obviously counts as some pedo shit

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Even if it was a charity case and he waited to fuck her until she was of age it's still grooming. They should have lynched this motherfucker as soon as he expressed interest in marrying a 9 year old.

[–] Soulg@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yes yes death is the only solution to anything bad

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 4 points 11 months ago

It's the only solution to child molesters.

[–] kay@lemmings.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I've tried to get a pedophile to see a therapist. I can tell you from a pure harm reduction perspective a bullet is much more likely to be the solution.

[–] SteveXVII@pawb.social 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Is anecdotal evidence accurate? This guy says yes.

[–] kay@lemmings.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Don't call me a guy. And if you don't cite a study, anecdotes are still legitimately a better bet than pulling shit out of your arse

Go on, genuinely willing to have my mind changed. Something tells me you haven't googled any literature on the topic until now tho.

[–] SteveXVII@pawb.social 4 points 10 months ago (6 children)

First things first: the only thing I did was disqualifying what you said, and since you used anecdotal evidence, I think it is more than fair that I did just that. How can I have pulled anything out of my arse if that is the only thing I did?

Anecdotal evidence being better than the supposed shit I said (I didn't find any, maybe you can point it out?) doesn't mean that your argument is any good, and wouldn't it be reasonable to expect good arguments if you are arguing for the bullet?

And I didn't need to do any research so far because just thinking for myself is sufficient at the moment, and before you ask me to do research, I'll recommend doing some yourself.

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[–] UnpopularCrow@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Interesting. That would certainly change the situation. Please post it if you do find it or DM me. I would be curious if that was the case!

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

It would not change how bad that guy's actions are. If anything it would make it worse.

[–] ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

My dad was born in Eastern Kentucky in 1916 so grew up in the same era and region. He knew a guy that married a 12 year old and the guy confided in him that the first day he came home from work after getting married he found his wife playing with a doll. He felt bad, and of course he should have.

Even that marriage was considered bad back then, and this 9 year old of course is about as horrible as can be imagined.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Maybe it's just unfortunate connotation with the phrasing but "these marriages were taken for granted" sounds like the author is saying that people didn't appreciate that they could do that back then.

[–] shani66@lemmy.comfysnug.space 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That really isn't what that phrase means, taken for granted just means people thought it was a normal part of life. It's taken for granted now that we don't have metallic skin and electric eyes, but if we are lucky that won't always be the case.

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[–] randomsnark@lemmy.ml 109 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Apparently this was actually a pretty significant case, as it was publicised at the time and led to the creation of laws setting the minimum age for marriage at 16. Although, wikipedia claims he was 24 rather than 22. I feel like this suggests this wasnt really the norm at the time the way the textbook suggests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_Charlie_Johns_and_Eunice_Winstead

[–] blaine@lemmy.ml 38 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

There are only five sentences of text on that page, with the last one explaining that this sort of marriage was not common at all. Where did you get the idea that the textbook is suggesting that this was the norm?

[–] randomsnark@lemmy.ml 48 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

The second paragraph to the right of the photo talks about how our perception of these things changes with time, and while it seems shocking to us now it would once have been taken for granted. It was a big news story at the time and was not taken for granted.

Edit: I guess my wording was a bit off. I meant to say that it was not within the cultural norms of the time. As worded, it sounds like I'm discussing its frequency rather than its level of acceptance - that's my bad.

Intended meaning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_norm

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 11 months ago

Given that the law was passed two weeks after they were married I think it has already been drafted and the whole subject was probably one of much debate. Also note three neighbouring states passed laws at the same time.

It seems likely that someone said "find a story about under-age marriage for our front page", and these two hapless yokels (or should I say Johns the hapless yokel) were the only ones stupid enough to have their photos taken.

In summary, I think society was working up to passing a law like this, and these two had a bride that was younger than most and got married at the right time.

That said, the author has definitely tried to imply that this sort of marriage was commonplace in the 30s, when it was probably at most "unusual".

[–] frezik@midwest.social 10 points 11 months ago

Maybe an example that gets the point across would be European royalty. When Mary Tudor was six, she was promised to Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire. He was 22, and they were cousins.

While that might not be typical of marriages in England at the time, there are certainly similar cases among the nobility until relatively recently. Enough to make the point about how cultural standards change.

[–] TheActualDevil@sffa.community 3 points 11 months ago

While it is suggesting it was common at the time, it doesn't outright state they're talking about that time. At earlier points in history it certainly was acceptable, but we probably don't have pictures of it to go in textbooks. This reeks of them having a general point to make and having a picture that almost fits that point. I've made more tenuous connections for college papers before.

Also, while it's not as drastic, I was doing some looking into family history recently and I found some ancestors who got married around that time. The marriage certificate listed the wife as 17 and the husband as 21... but the math didn't add up when I found their birth certificates and on the marriage certificate she was aged up from 15 and he was aged down from 22. It was in a small farming community and at that point in time and place schooling was largely abandoned during harvest and as soon as kids were old enough to help out on the farm full time they would just stop with school. And for women, helping out on the farm meant taking care of the house and raising kids generally. Time at school was a waste for them so they just got right to the adult stuff immediately.

[–] Jilanico@lemmy.world 67 points 11 months ago (3 children)

"...in 2017, Human Rights Watch pointed out that Afghanistan has a tougher law on child marriage than parts of the United States..." 😨

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 21 points 11 months ago

Make sure to insist on a honeymoon in Germany as over here marriages under 16 get auto-divorced (16-18 a judge will decide) and you have a solid reason for asylum.

[–] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That's cute & all, but even if certain things happen to be correct, I don't give a flying fuck what the people running Afghanistan have as laws of the land. They're so fucked up. Just had a discussion on here, they've got all these laws, kill the homosexuals, homosexuals are just an abomination. But hey....there's this powerful warlord or prominent man engaging in bacha bazi.....ehhhhh, we'll pretend that's not happening. Maybe even join in. Gross hypocrisy.

[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago

They're so fucked up.

That's the point. The fucked up place has stricter rules on this fucked up thing than places in the US.

That's fucked up

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[–] m12421k@iusearchlinux.fyi 49 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Did I read this wrong or the author is really trying to frame it as a cutesy normal thing?

[–] protist@mander.xyz 72 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I don't see that at all, seems like they're just pointing out how cultural norms can change over time, which is a basic ~~tenant~~ tenet of sociology

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 11 months ago (1 children)

*tenet

[–] Rusty@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago

Nolan really outdone himself in that movie

[–] m12421k@iusearchlinux.fyi 12 points 11 months ago

makes sense 👍

[–] ULS@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Idk that sounds completely American pride-ish to me... 🤮

[–] protist@mander.xyz 34 points 11 months ago

To think child marriage is just an American thing is to ignore reality

[–] academia_sucks1024@sh.itjust.works 2 points 11 months ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_interactionism

Stay in school everybody.

[–] yesman@lemmy.world 45 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Textbooks can be wild. My A&P textbook had a graphic showing the difference between Caucasian, Asian, and SSAfrican skulls. I was like: what the eugenics?

[–] theUnlikely@sopuli.xyz 33 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Pardon my ignorance, but aren't the skulls often shaped a bit differently? If the textbook was just showing that and not saying something about one shape making a certain race superior, is that still a problem?

Different races will often have little differences right? My favorite example is the gene variant ABCC11 that is extremely common in South Korea. It limits the production of odorous sweat by reducing the activity of apocrine glands. I think it also affects whether ear wax is wet or dry. I'm kind of jealous of that one and am waiting for CRISPR to be available for it. Well maybe not, but I'd at least think about it.

[–] Nowsuiluj@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I did not know that. I'm part Korean and my friend keeps telling me I always smell fine even when I'm camping for days. Always thought it was a myth though. Kinda cool

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[–] TwinTusks@bitforged.space 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I do believe there are differences in different race of people, isn't there a small part in Africa where the population are best suited for running? However, there shouldn't be much difference in skulls by itself. All infants are borned with malleble skull until age of two or so.

[–] TheActualDevil@sffa.community 11 points 11 months ago

I remember reading an article years ago about a village that put out an absurd amount of Olympic long distance runners. The article noted that the village was on a high plateau and far from other places. The extreme difference in height led to better lung capacity and the normalcy of having to travel by foot long distances just raised a bunch of people who conditioned their bodies from birth to be adept at long distance running. None of it resulted in any major changes in population physiology as it's just training your body to deal with environmental conditions after birth and doesn't cause the mutations in the genome that would mark evolutionary changes.

I mean, obviously there are some physical differences between races. They look different, some have more prevalence of certain diseases or conditions, but races are entirely a social construct. Scaled out, the differences in races aren't more severe than the differences in variability in smaller groups within a race, or even a family. It's like, yeah, uncle Steve's side of the family all have kinda pointy ears because he passed that on to his kids but his brother didn't pass that gene on but they're still family. Zoom out and view all humans not as different races but one giant group and uncle Steve's branch all just have darker skin or straighter hair, but they're still clearly part of the human family.

[–] Shelbyeileen@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

We learned it in forensics and reconstructive cosmetology. The shape of the skull can often be used to determine race. I loathed having to list out the scientific names, because they're not words you say nowadays.

[–] Landless2029@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

In the American TV show BONES this was literally done every episode. It wasn't a race thing really it was presented in a respectfully "scientific" manner.

[–] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

[–] buckwheat@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

Formerly Chucksville.

[–] AlfredEinstein@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The problem with a pedophile marrying a child is that it's all downhill for the next seventy or eighty years potentially.

[–] boborhrongar@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I feel like there's maybe a couple other issues

[–] antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 11 months ago

Sneedville

[–] ohlaph@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Which textbook?

[–] UnpopularCrow@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

“Sociology, A down to earth approach” by James Henslin, 2007.

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