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submitted 5 months ago by NataliePortland@lemmy.ca to c/til@lemmy.world

it's also yummy

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[-] Tristaniopsis@aussie.zone 93 points 5 months ago

There’s this great youtoobs channel I watch a lot. It’s this attorney who shows you how to select smoked salmon in the supermarket.

It’s the Lox Picking Lawyer.

[-] TheBest@midwest.social 11 points 5 months ago
[-] Tristaniopsis@aussie.zone 7 points 5 months ago

I’m proud of that one. Sometimes the stars and my ADHD align.

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[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 77 points 5 months ago

Super impressive since English is only 1,500 years old...

And that it's long before we even started using the modern alphabet...

This seems more like words like sarcophagus, that exist in modern English, but are recently borrowed words.

It's not an English word, it's just English as a language steals words from lots of existing languages

[-] Hegar@kbin.social 77 points 5 months ago

It's not a loan word, it's the word for salmon in the oldest constructable ancestor of English.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 38 points 5 months ago

According to etymonline,

Lax. Noun. "salmon," from Old English leax (see lox). Cognate with Middle Dutch lacks, German Lachs, Danish laks, etc.; according to OED the English word was obsolete except in the north and Scotland from 17c., reintroduced in reference to Scottish or Norwegian salmon.

It's weird in that lax died ~400 years ago, then was borrowed back ~100 years ago into American English from Yiddish-speaking immigrants.

It's a weird loanword in that it was a loaned obsolete word that underwent some semantic narrowing in the loan.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Exactly it predates the English language, lots of words do.

The English language is basically a neglected toddler by linguistic standards, it was left alone in a closet to fend for itself

Edit:

Also funny you just said it's the word for salmon...

Instead of you know, salmon...

Laks just meant "fish" in the proto languages.

Which is why OPs link doesn't mention the spelling not changing, and why it's wrong about the meaning not changing too

Going from "any type of fish, living or dead" to "specific type of fish when prepared by smoking"

Seems like a pretty significant change in meaning to me

[-] Hegar@kbin.social 15 points 5 months ago

I think by that logic almost all words in every language predate the language they are part of. Like saying that our noses aren't really human because noses predate humans.

a neglected toddler

What do you mean by this?

As island-based languages go English is probably the least isolated in history. It's Germanic relatives are all nearby. Britain has had extensive links to the continent for the entire history of English and well before. It's an international language and has been for hundreds of years.

English also isn't that weird just because it got a large infusion of (pretty closely related) Norman words after 1066. Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese all have over half their lexical items from Chinese, an unrelated language.

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[-] circuitfarmer@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Super impressive since English is only 1,500 years old...

I'm guessing you mean "Old English" since it's sometimes said to be that old, but realistically that version of English has very little in common with English now (it was verb-second, for example, like German still is today). Even the post-Danelaw version of a couple hundred years later (with Norse borrowings like "husband" and even the pronouns "they/them") resembles modern English a lot more. Middle English was largely due to the influx of Norman French (both morphological and syntactic changes), and the whole thing isn't really recognizable as quasi Modern English until around 1500-1600.

Point is: language is a continuum, and a lot of these oldest this/oldest that claims in language just have to do with where someone is arbitrarily drawing a line.

Modern German for lox is "Lachs" (same pronunciation really, and spelling ultimately doesn't matter in linguistics). This makes sense, because the English of 1500 years ago would have been relatively close to German varieties of the period. But doesn't that mean "lox/Lachs/however you want to spell it" goes back further than that, perhaps to some earlier parent of both English and German? Yes, it likely does.

Edit: and yes, as others have said, that means lox is not a borrowing (vs. e.g. "husband"). Lox existed before anyone was calling English English. But that's also true of e.g. pronoun "he" and a lot of other stuff: by definition, any word that is reconstructed in Proto-Germanic and still exists in English today is "the oldest" (but there will be many of them and they're all roughly considered to be the same age, since proto-languages are ultimately abstractions with no exact dating).

[-] NataliePortland@lemmy.ca 16 points 5 months ago

Yes that's how languages evolve. It's interesting, isn't it?

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[-] Neato@ttrpg.network 12 points 5 months ago

Oldest word [used] in the English language

Not oldest English word.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Then it's still not true because row (roe) is older...

I don't know why people keep jumping in this.

There's so much wrong with OPs link, defending it in one aspect just invalidates it another...

[-] HelluvaKick@lemmy.world 49 points 5 months ago

Omfg why do we bother calling it smoked salmon when lox is much cooler?

[-] NataliePortland@lemmy.ca 32 points 5 months ago

Many people call it lox. You can too!

[-] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

Not me. Tis a silly word. Now begone peasant. I must get back to mine shrubberies.

[-] sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago
[-] NataliePortland@lemmy.ca 9 points 5 months ago

Ya for sure it’s a difference. Both are awesome. I’m an east coast Jew, obviously raised in bagels and lox. But now I live on the west coast where Jews are rare and strange. People here don’t know words like “lox” or “shmear”, so sometimes I just call it smoked salmon the way you might call latkes “potato pancakes”.

But now my new brother in law manages a salmon hatchery and gives us jars of smoked salmon he makes and it’s so unbelievably good. Is lox cured instead of smoked? Idk. Both great. It’s splitting hairs really, isn’t it? Salmon is so good!

[-] victorz@lemmy.world 27 points 5 months ago

Lox means specifically smoked salmon? Odd. "Lax" is the swedish word for just "salmon". I really thought lox was just another word for salmon.

[-] twoshoes@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

The German word for salmon is "Lachs" but it's pronounced "Lax". I wonder who had the word first

[-] CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

A couple thousand years ago German and English hadn’t even split off from each other — they were the same language.

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[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but English didn't exist 8000 years ago. Olde English was synthesized from numerous Germanic dialects in the 5th century, which was about 1600 years ago. Not only that, but "lox" isn't an English word, it's Yiddish, and it wasn't introduced into the English speaking world until 1934 when a wave of Jewish immigrants moved to Western Europe and North America.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago

Yes, English didn't exist 8000 years ago. Instead, there was a language called Proto-Indoeuropean spoken on the steppes of Ukraine. Just like how Latin spread and local dialects slowly became Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian, etc., PIE spread out and its descendants became Greek, Sanskrit, Russian, Latin, German, etc.

Part of what happened over time was sound shifts. For example, PIE p morphed into an f in Proto-Germanic. Father and the Latin word pater go back to the same PIE root word, but father exhibits the sound change of p -> f you saw in Germanic languages.

Similarly, Spanish has a sound change where f changed into h. So the Latin word fabulari (to chat) became hablar in Spanish and falar in Portuguese.

The point of the article is that the PIE word for salmon, laks, by random chance didn't really morph much in Germanic languages. So you have lax, lox, lachs, etc.

Interestingly, the Old English word for salmon was leax, and that made its way into Middle English and early Modern English as lax. It died out in favor of the French-derived salmon, and then we borrowed lox back from Yiddish.

It's like if beef entirely replaced cow, then we borrowed back koe or kuh from Dutch or German.

[-] Shave_MyBeever@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Try reading it differently.

It's a really old word (oldest) that is currently used in the English language.

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[-] daddyjones@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

As a native English speaker who'd never heard of this word - TIL x2

[-] FrankTheHealer@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

Me neither lol. Ive lived my whole life in Ireland for context. I've seen and heard smoked salmon plenty of times but never lox

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[-] Fog0555@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

Liquid Oxygen? Wow I didn't know it was that old.

disclaimerThis is sarcasm.

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Ancient Sumerian refrigeration technology was seriously underrated: -297°F was no problem for them

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

This is cool enough that all Indo-European languages should start calling salmon Lox again.

With the right strategy and current technology, we should be able to evolve all current Indo-European languages back to a singular language over a thousand years or so. That would unite half the world in language.

A highly noble goal. We could call it, the Lox plan.

[-] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 17 points 5 months ago

German already calls it Lachs.

[-] GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago

And in Swedish it's Lax. Pretty sure it's Laks in Norwegian as well.

[-] cabbage@piefed.social 6 points 5 months ago

Indeed it is! And lax in Icelandic as well, which remains the closest to old Norse.

It's just the British trying to be fancy with their salmon.

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[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Excellent. One step in the right direction. Good guy Germany.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 11 points 5 months ago

Now that's interesting. The German word for salmon is "Lachs" [laks] which is basically the same as "lox" [lɔks]. The change from the "ɔ" sound to the "a" sound likely has to do with the Great Vowel Shift

[-] samus12345@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

The English word comes from the Yiddish "laks," which comes from German. So while it is pronounced the same in English as it was 8,000 years ago, it was also introduced to English relatively recently, in 1934.

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[-] ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago
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[-] Got_Bent@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

I work for a small company owned and run by a Jewish family

One of their favorite jokes goes like this:

You can't hold us in a prison cell! We eat lox for breakfast!

(And we do indeed have bagels and lox brought in regularly)

[-] loxdogs@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

finally, I understand now, what means first part of my nickname, besides Liquid OXygen

[-] theywilleatthestars@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

The most important words are the oldest

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Important words undergo sound changes all the time.

For example, in Germanic languages, Proto Indoeuropean p sounds consistently morphed into f sounds. So the PIE word pods became Proto Germanic fots became English foot. pəter became fader became father. The preposition per became fur became for.

Lox is mostly unusual in that it didn't have any major sound changes affect it in Germanic languages.

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[-] RedIce25@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago
[-] argiope@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago

The coolness of this is not lox on me.

[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 months ago

It's also a common abbreviation for liquid oxygen in rocket engineering.

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this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2024
615 points (96.5% liked)

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