this post was submitted on 21 Feb 2024
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The fun thing about needing a job is that all the advice is either incredibly demeaning or incredibly futile. Usually both (lemmy.world)
submitted 8 months ago by _number8_@lemmy.world to c/workreform@lemmy.world
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i saw someone on twitter saying to "leverage your network" i'd sooner leverage a shotgun into my mouth jesus fucking christ

plus all this is meant to be done at a time when you're likely at your lowest confidence, most insecure, and most desperate.

just the idea that it's my job to sell myself to these sorts of business goons who ENJOY seeing people desperate and on edge is so sick. i have nothing to sell, i am not a commodity, i am a human being. and everything's ran thru some shitty AI now i'm sure. like the applications weren't demeaning enough.

can't we all just be assigned jobs by the government? it'd build social cohesion. like the hunger games. maybe you can opt out but I'd rather take my chances than answer these fucking personality tests or get so hopeless i'm actually applying for something with hours I hate with a miserable commute with a terrible wage which ALSO won't hire me

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[–] Humana@lemmy.world 105 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

"Have you tried applying on LinkedIn? Messaging recruiters or hiring managers on LinkedIn?"

"Oh no don't use LinkedIn, everyone ignores those because of bots, apply directly"

"Put keywords from the job listing in your resume so the algorithm will rank you hire"

"Oh no don't use words from the listing in your resume or you'll be flagged as a bot"

"Hire a headhunter to apply to many positions for you"

"Avoid headhunters because when they spam your resume, you'll get flagged as a bot"

"Complete a tedious and time consuming project for the company and post it on your personal site so they see you're not a bot already qualified"

"Oh they didn't even open the link to look at it? Well do one for the next company and the next and the next..."

Looking for a white collar job today is basically an arms race with the net result recruiters spend the bulk of their time weeding out bots, and applicants spend the bulk of their time trying to not look like bots. It's ridiculous and I kind of wish places just accepted in person applications again.

[–] _number8_@lemmy.world 64 points 8 months ago (2 children)

yeah, people shit on the boomer 'firm handshake' thing but at this rate, even as a card-carrying introvert i'd rather take my chances and at least get a feel of the place rather than filling out another godawful application that no one will ever read

[–] SuperSynthia@lemmy.world 38 points 8 months ago

One way I was able to land a job was doing the old fashioned “speak to the hiring manager and shake his hand”. She said out of all the online applications (hundreds by the way every month) I was the first person to actually go up there and express interest. Still had to put in the online application, but a week later I interviewed and got the offer.

These businesses love to dehumanize the employee pool when they should realize it’s so easy these days for them to get in the exact same position.

[–] Zorque@kbin.social 18 points 8 months ago

People shit on it because it was mostly backed by racism and sexism.

[–] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

  1. LinkedIn is fine, my past 2 contracts both were off LinkedIn

  2. Yes, include keywords but spread them out, absolutely. Also include them in your cover letter.

  3. Don't use headhunters, but you can use recruiters.

  4. Pick a specific tech stack to specialize in, one that is popular abd high demand. 100% yes you should have a portfolio using that tech you can link to on your resume or applications. Focus on applying to the smaller but refined pool of jobs that explicitly need the exact tech stack you have in your portfolio.

Example: I specialized in .NET tech stack. C#, azure, EF Core, NUnit, Sql Server, etc etc. The full windows stack.

It's a super popular stack, and there's tonnes of demand. I don't waste my time applying for python or c++ or lua or go or rust jobs. I stick to my stack.

I have many projects on my github using that stack, including install instructions, releases, docker containers, etc etc.

As a result I can talk about the tech used in these stacks extensively, I know them like the back of my hand. I have strong opinions on patterns with them, I can teach others about them, etc.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What's the strongest opinion you have on the stack you know (or one of its elements)? Not necessarily "interview-safe" opinions

[–] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

I despise the current paradigm of mock'ing everything, abstracting everything, and unit testing 100% cide coverage for no logical reason.

Instead I only unit test the following:

  1. Any code I truly want to unit test, because it does something that is iffy on if it works or not, I break out into atomic logic that can very easily unit test.

  2. Code coverage is a business requirement and we already have 100% coverage from integration tests, then I'll start worrying about unit testing the shit out of stuff.

In other words if you waste time on mindless unit tests to assert that 1+1=2 when you dont have 100% coverage on your integration tests yet, you are wasting time.

In terms of atomic code, consider this example:

public class StudentService(IStudentRepository repo)
{

    public bool AnyGrade12()
    {
        var students = repo.GetStudents();
        return students.Any(s => s.Grade == 12);
    }
}

This would be very normal as a pattern to see, but I hate it because to test it, now I need to mock a stubbed in IStudentRepository.

Consider this instead:

public static class StudentService
{

    public static bool AnyGrade12(IEnumerable students)
    {
        return students.Any(s => s.Grade == 12);
    }
}

Now this is what I consider atomic logic. The rule of thumb is, if the class has no dependencies or all it's dependencies are atomic, it too is atomic.

Generally it becomes clear all the atomic logic can just be declared as static classes pain-free, and there's no need to abstract it. It's trivial to unit test, and you don't have to mock anything.

Any remaining non-atomic code should end up as anything you simply must integration test against (3rd party api calls, database queries, that sort of stuff)

You'll also often find many of your atomic functions naturally and smoothly slot into becoming just extension functions.

This approach goes very much against the grain of every dotnet team I've worked with, but once I started demoing how it works and they saw how my unit tests became much less convoluted while still hitting ~90% code coverage, some folks started to get on board with the paradigm.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 38 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Sell yourself! Create a brand! Research companies!

No, fuck all that. Create one good resume and shotgun that into every open role you see. If you really like a role, put in some time to tweak the resume.

Play the numbers game. They are.

[–] fubbernuckin@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Also, they're using ai to weed out applicants, use ai to generate applicable content. They lie about the job description, you lie on your resume. You're allowed to play the game with any tools at your disposal.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

BAD COMPANIES do this.

why would you want to work at a bad company? I know you want the paycheck, but that kind of company is gonna wage theft your ass, anyway.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago

why would you want to work at a bad company

Paycheck until you find a good one.

[–] fubbernuckin@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

oh yeah? And how easy is it to find a good company that can actually pay you? You think all the bad ones have a tag on their front page that says "hey, we comb through your resume with an ai"? If i had the option to only apply to companies who don't do this, that'd be my first choice, but as it stands, the only way to find them is to play the numbers game.

Besides, this is against the point anyway. You want us to all play by the rules when they don't have to? At that point you're cheating yourself on the basis of "not all companies".

[–] Assman@sh.itjust.works 37 points 8 months ago (1 children)

can't we all just be assigned jobs by the government

Careful, a military recruiter might hear you

[–] EtherWhack@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

They don't want me

[–] i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca 35 points 8 months ago

“Leverage your network” is just corporate word salad for an otherwise good idea.

Throughout your life, you’ve studied, been friends with, or worked with people who knew you and you had respect for their sensibilities. That might mean as little as texting or emailing a couple of people and saying you’re looking for work and asking if they have any suggestions for you.

I’ve been working for over 20 years and in my experience, the type of people who are doing the gross version of “working their network” by pretending on LinkedIn are NOT any of the people I would ever want to work with again. They’re either fakers, insane, selling something, or never learned how to properly interact with people. Once you can smell them from their online activities you can learn to avoid them.

I’d say most quality job opportunities come from people you know, and it happens quietly. Nobody’s posting public garbage on social media - they’re having direct conversations with people who are able to connect them with a single person who needs to hire somebody and also doesn’t want to sift through thousands of resumes submitted by bots.

All that doesn’t really address your frustration, though. The game is gross, and it sucks that we have to play it.

[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.world 29 points 8 months ago

just the idea that it's my job to sell myself to these sorts of business goons who ENJOY seeing people desperate and on edge is so sick. i have nothing to sell, i am not a commodity, i am a human being.

This hit me hard. I'm in a similar boat. All I can say is do your damndest to stay positive friend. It's a fucked up game that only some are forced to play.

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

As @Humana@Lemmy.world said, a lot of "career advice" is or can seem contradictory.

Being a recruiter itself sounds like hell as much as looking for a job. Having to be the one who communicates bad news to so many people all the time, having to go through reams of resumes and bullshit, your career being specifically tied to whether firms are hiring or not, which leads to being laid off followed by employers rushing to find people to hire with again...

Looking for jobs takes practice and a whole lot of luck. "Leverage your network" is just bullshit speak for talk to people you know who might know where a job for you is. Firms hire at random times during the year, some months no bites, others you'll get multiple.

Remember this variance is not your fault whatsoever and has nothing to do with your abilities.

The best time to look is while you have work but the second best time is now.

I know it is daunting, and the search feels endless. It might take you hundreds of rejections and 10 tries of getting very close but not making it but you only need 1 offer at minimum.

Like a "Continue?" screen at the arcade, you only lose if you give up.

[–] Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 8 months ago

i think I'll just give up

[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Having to be the one who communicates bad news to so many people all the time

I mean, they're just automated emails. You click a button

[–] i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca 4 points 8 months ago

The good ones click the button. The shitty ones don’t even do that much.

[–] Blackout@kbin.social 23 points 8 months ago

Have you tried lying on the floor, curling up into a ball, and giving up all hope? Always worked for me

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 19 points 8 months ago (4 children)

i saw someone on twitter saying to "leverage your network" i'd sooner leverage a shotgun into my mouth jesus fucking christ

...why?

Isn't that the most reliable (and arguably easiest) way to find a new job?

[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 19 points 8 months ago (1 children)

not everyone is a social butterfly.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago

There is a huge gap between "social butterfly" and "I'd rather commit suicide than asking my friend if their workplace is hiring".

[–] force@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

assuming you have a "network", yes. the way the person here words it, it sounds like they do have connections but just refuse to take advantage of them. in which case that seems a bit absurd, most people don't even have that to their disposal.

but of course the comment has no context so it's not my place to make assumptions. maybe that's not what they meant.

[–] Signtist@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago

I'm currently working the best job I've ever had by far, and I got it because I had a friend who worked there. Not even in a high position, he was just a regular employee. I'd spent months sending out resumes for positions I was qualified for, but one resume handed to my friend to be put directly into the hands of the hiring manager got me a better-paying job that I wasn't even qualified for. It was 2 weeks between printing the resume and showing up for my first shift.

It's annoying, but, these days, any resume submitted online to be added to the pile is just a waste of your time. Find a way to get it directly to the hiring person - even if it's just physically going there and handing it to the person at the front desk. If you submit it the normal way, it'll never be seen.

[–] TheOneCurly@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago

I love helping my friends if I can. If I know a place looking and someone I know is at least vaguely reliable it's an easy win win.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 13 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Apply for any and all Civil Service jobs. It might take you a long time to get called, but you get a good union and a pension.

[–] YaksDC@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It took me 3 months of waiting for my federal job, that was 22 years ago.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

That's pretty fast. I know people who waited for years to get hired in the Fire Department.

[–] d00phy@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

It’s important to remember you are not looking for a family to join, you’re literally marketing your skillset to employers looking to hire. It feels dehumanizing because it is. Before hiring you, companies don’t really care about your personality. If they decide to hire you, good companies consider how your personality will fit in with the current team. Also, who you know can be a big part of finding a job. Always has been, in fact. Marketing yourself is really nothing new. The particulars have changed, but the core process is basically the same.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 3 points 8 months ago

The same advice works for job seeking that works for dating: you are looking for somewhere (vs. someone) that is compatible with you.

Many, many places (or people) are not going to be what you need, or you aren't what they need. So the quest to find the right one is always going to take a while.

The more desperate you become, thinking you are the problem, the more you become the problem. Just breathe and realize you are who you are and it just takes time.

If any interview ever makes you feel bad or too desperate, just get up and walk out. You can, you're a free person. There is some job somewhere that is right for you, it just takes time to find it.

[–] Noodle07@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

So funny to read, I'm just here looking for a beginner office job like receptionist over here lol

[–] Crystal_Shards64@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

I'm sorry you're in this position. I hope things improve for you soon. I hope things improve for all of us soon because it feels like most people are getting shafted hard.

A coworker I really enjoyed working with is leaving in two weeks and it made me realize how I'm being severely underpaid. But the stress of job hunting has my stomach in knots.

[–] metaStatic@kbin.social -1 points 8 months ago

You don't need a job you need to acquire currency. A job is just the easiest way to do it.

[–] Nomecks@lemmy.ca -4 points 8 months ago

Go to networking events. Shake people's hands and talk to them. Fuck Linkedin and doing anything other than in-person communications.

[–] pixxelkick@lemmy.world -5 points 8 months ago

It mostly sounds like you are trying to justify inaction.

Posting on lemmy certainly isn't going to help.

There's countless jobs, it's not that bad. Typically if you aren't getting at least some emails back it means your resume has some serious issues and needs fixing.

Pretty much everytime this comes up, the persons resume is very poorly setup and it's obviously why they aren't getting callbacks. Wrong formatting, not parseable, not straight to the point, not scannable, meanders, skips over critical information...

That or the person admits they haven't been putting cover letters on the applications.