Labour is fine. Just not 40, 50 or 60 hours a week. 10-15, maybe 20 hours should be way enough to live a worryfree life. Change my mind.
As long as we're shooting for the moon what say you and me and the mates at work all decide together how much, and how often, and even what we produce?
You mean like a worker co-op? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative)
Or co-determination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination)
Things like Mondragon Corporation, as well as Germany's quality of life and economic prosperity since their adoption of co-determination laws, shows us that these are not the pipe dreams that capitalists want you to believe they are.
OH! i had heard about how labor gets on the board in germany specifically but never knew the term for it. Thank you friend!
Sure thing. Make sure to tell your friends!
You mean we'd be in control of the means of production? That's an interesting idea. We should come up with a recognizable symbol for this new concept. Something simple, like two silhouettes of tools, maybe crossed.
now just wait a goldarn minnit mister, im not talkin godless unamerican commie shit, i'm talking about returning pride to the workin man. self-determination and democracy at work! dont get it twisted now
It's incredible what a huge difference it make to one's health/mood/etc., having a healthy work/life balance. I think the world would overall be a less angry, spiteful place, if we all worked 4-day, 35-hour work weeks.
Humans were never meant to work 60, 70 hours per week, that's just insane and stupid. What's worse are the people who will brag to you about it. That's how ingrained it is into our culture.
Maybe it's just because I don't loathe the thought of going home to my family? It seems like a lot of those toxic work culture people are doing it for reasons like that?
I also find that most of those who are overworking have a bad relationship at home they actively avoid by working as much as possible and get home to eat and sleep nothing more, sure won't spend time with their kids or wife.
Im with you, but 35h a week are way too much also. At least you should get a really good wage for that much time.
I just don't think this argument really tracks. If we were hunter/gatherers, we would have no choice but to hunt and gather for food. No it's not consensual, you have to do it, but would we really say we were being coerced? By who? Nature?
You can say there is bad stuff about Capitalism, and better ideas or systems we should do instead, without this coercion claim.
In the case of capitalism, we are actually speaking about coercion, though. The concept of "primitive accumulation" (or "primary accumulation"), as introduced by Karl Marx in his critique of political economy, refers to the historical process that led to the formation of capitalism by separating the producer from the means of production. This separation is what ultimately pushed people into the capitalist labor market, making them dependent on selling their labor to survive. The coercive forces that pressured people into capitalism and the labor market can be understood through several key mechanisms:
Enclosure of the Commons: In England and elsewhere in Europe, land that was previously held in common for collective use by peasants was enclosed, privatized, and turned into private property. This process forced many peasants off the land, depriving them of their traditional means of subsistence and making them dependent on wage labor.
Colonialism and Slavery: The expansion of European powers into the Americas, Africa, and Asia involved the appropriation of land and resources, often through violent means. Indigenous peoples were displaced or enslaved, and their resources were extracted for the benefit of European capitalist economies. This not only facilitated the accumulation of capital but also integrated various regions into the global capitalist system.
Legislation: Laws and regulations played a crucial role in this process. For example, the series of laws known as the "Poor Laws" in England were designed to coerce the unemployed and poor into working for wages. These laws restricted the movement of labor and made it illegal to refuse work, effectively pushing people into the labor market.
Destruction of Alternative Economies: Pre-capitalist forms of production and exchange, such as feudalism, communal living, or barter systems, were systematically destroyed or undermined. This was not only through direct coercion but also through economic policies and practices that favored capitalist modes of production and exchange.
Industrial Revolution: The technological advancements of the Industrial Revolution created a demand for labor in factories. The rural populations, already dispossessed by the enclosure movements, migrated to urban centers in search of work, further entrenching the wage labor system.
Marx argued that primitive accumulation was not a one-time historical event but an ongoing process that sustains capitalism. It involves continuous dislocation and dispossession to maintain a labor force that has no other choice but to sell its labor power. This process ensures a supply of workers for the capitalist system and maintains the conditions necessary for capital accumulation.
In essence, the transition to capitalism, fueled by these coercive forces, created a society where the majority must sell their labor to a minority who owns the means of production, thereby establishing the capitalist labor market and perpetuating the cycle of capital accumulation.
Thanks for taking the time to do this informative write-up.
If we were hunter/gatherers, we would have no choice but to hunt and gather for food.
The argument is not that people are forced to labor, but that people are forced to labor on behalf of others. Which is to say, its the difference between a Hunter/Gatherer living off the land and a King's Huntsman, who is distinguished from a Poacher, in that he has duties and privileges assigned to him by another guy.
You can say there is bad stuff about Capitalism, and better ideas or systems we should do instead, without this coercion claim.
The nature of the Capitalist system is to lay claim to physical property with some threat of violence. It is inherently a dictatorial system, in which a handful of people are afforded the right to claim surplus to sustain and enrich themselves at the expense of their neighbors.
The "bad stuff" is what makes Capitalism a system at all. It is - to crib a joke from Monty Python - the violence that is inherent within the system. If you don't pay your dues to the King, he gets to beat them out of you.
How can you even discuss Capitalism without talking about this innate coercive mechanic?
It only tracks because you can't get consent from nature. You could have gotten consent from fellow humans. The humans who put this structure in place were people that could be negotiated with and spoken to. Not some blind force.
While I agree with the sentiment, saying that it's been hundreds of years in the making is just wrong. If anything, labor rights are at historic highs, and that's been centuries in the making.
both are correct. As long as their has been expropriation of labour there has been struggle for liberation, also enclosure and forced market participation has been a project of centuries.
As in all things it's push and pull. If you want to learn more read about enclosure of the Commons and at least the bits of Debt: the first 5000 years that deal with imposing currency.
I often think of this famous line to remember that there’s been a whole lot of improvement: “he must a king, he doesn’t have shit all over him.”
Not only that, before we can even "freely" sell ourselves, we, or someone, has to pay for our preparation/education, because why pay for a slave's training when you can charge them?
Centuries of violence? Try prehistory. Humans have always used violence if someone takes more than they contribute.
Humans have always used violence if someone takes more than they contribute.
In the grand scheme of things, using violence against those who take more than they contribute (i.e., the upper class) is one of the things we do least often.
And yet give two kids a cookie and a knife and watch how carefully they divide that cookie. Fairness is a very old instinct.
Humans are for the most part inherently fair and cooperative.
But sociopaths aren't, so they think no one else will do anything without the threat of starving to death.
And the sociopaths have been making the rules since the mid 80s.
Untold damage done to humanity and civilization just so a handful of old white men can be ridiculously, unspendably rich.
And we are taught to idealize them.
I'm not giving knives to children, not after last time. Nice try Child Protective Services.
Very vaguely related, I had a somewhat-friend in college who told me about her, her twin, and her year younger sister would fight constantly all the time. Imagine 3 close aged kindergardeners just constantly at each other's throats when you were really not ready. They were so fed up that they went into the kitchen placed the three of them in equal distances away from the center, and then gave them each a knife and said "Go! If you hate each other so much, kill each other!"
The all started sobbing and hugged each other, and got along a lot better after that.
That's...def trauma territory, but, it's an example that human instinct to divided resources (emotional attention from a parent is REQUIRED for children's psyche) isn't darwinian. America specifically touts Survival of The Fittest as THE default human psyche and I find that it's just not true.
I'd say violence is much more often used by people to take more than they contribute than the converse. Violence against the takers is so rare they write about it in history books.
We are slaves. We just don't like in a big plantation. No. We live anywhere where there are "jobs". No jobs means we become homeless eventually. And who has these "jobs"? The rich assholes do. Just like we were forced to work for their forefathers in plantations, now we work for them in "jobs". The job is basically a metaphorical plantation.
Why are they called rights if not everyone has them
To distinguish between Humans and Human Capital.
Ah yes. The Always Sunny argument for UBI.
But we have our freedom.
Freedom to work at a selection of under paying, exploitative places that will take from you every ounce of effort, strength, and time, so that you can "earn" a living... Because nobody is going to give you a living; you're not worth anything unless you work and earn your life.
Freedom to choose from a number of ways to live, how to travel from place to place, either by buying an overpriced automobile, and paying for every interaction any professional repair person has with it... Or you can choose to pay to ride transit, where you have to conform to their schedule and if you're late, you're left behind... And you get to pay for the privilege. Or you could, IDK, walk? But wait, it's MILES away from your home, because it's in a commercial zone and you live in a residential zone. We couldn't possibly mix commercial and residential. Tsk tsk. That's just not okay.
You can also choose to buy food at the grocery store where the lowest prices are not in the shareholders best interest, so we'll do everything we can to convince you that you're getting the best deals by offering lower prices on your food, as the quality slips away, and products are shrunken down to the point where it's almost not worth buying it anymore.
But because you have been given a choice, you are "free" and not a slave. Clearly.
..... Late stage capitalism is just slavery with extra steps. They're making the slaves figure their own shit out, rather than give them food and a place to sleep.... Just, here's your barter (pay) for today, go figure out where to sleep and what to eat on your own fucking time.
Except that the Amish exist...
Are you saying the poor should kill the existing land owners so they can colonize Pennsylvania?
Who's ancestors got large areas of free or cheap land when they came to the United States. They also work regular jobs in their communities.
Are you suggesting the Amish don't participate in the labor market?
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