this post was submitted on 29 Apr 2024
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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 17 points 6 months ago (5 children)

It's rather the opposite. Big oil pushes nuclear because nuclear directly competes with renewables, and because nuclear is a centralised power generation solution that they can fully own, in contrast with stuff like rooftop solar or onshore wind. Shell has a share in General Atomics, BP is eyeing investments into nuclear energy.

Nuclear fusion might truly be an answer, but there is nothing that nuclear does that renewables can also do, but cheaper and faster.

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[–] Forester@yiffit.net 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Renewables are great while in combination with peaker plants as the renewables produce a good amount of the base load when the sun shines wind blows etc, That energy generation is dirt cheap no arguments there. The Issue is those Peaker Plants are OIL COAL and GAS fired in most cases. The ideal solution IMHO would be to phase out the peakers and replace them with grid scale power storage augmented with nuclear base stations to manage load and reduce the need for new construction of grid scale power storage. The issue only using renewables is these grid scale batteries are projected to cost billions of dollars per project and if we forgo nuclear base stations to provide base load we would need a massive amount of these grid scale power storage stations in addition to also then having to generating roughly 90% more power than we do now from renewables alone to replace fossil fuels and to make up for inefficiencies in a storage dependent grid due to the fact that there would be constant losses of energy every time its transferred from generation to storage to use potential. Its simpler and more efficient make power on demand so I think we should take the current infrastructure and modify it. A turbine cares not what turns it. We can rip out coal fired oil fired and gas fired infrastructure and replace it with a modern generation of Small Modular Reactors ( it is proven technology ask the US NAVY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors ) With Peaker plants being transitioned to base stations this would make it so that the excess energy stored during the day can be tapped but we would not have to depend on it. Instead we can dynamically as needed (as the day ends in solar heavy locations or on calm days in wind heavy locations) start up the nuclear base stations to keep the grid energized using the batteries as a buffer on both ends as the Nuclear plants can not be cycled as quickly as fossil plants but can provide steady power on demand.

[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)
[–] Forester@yiffit.net 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Solar, wind, geothermal and biofuels

Aka renewables

So while the progress of the last few decades in renewables is great progress, I'm certain you can see why we need to divest from oil and invest in nuclear tech to take up the base load

[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (22 children)

I'm surprised that solar isn't yet big enough to be broken out on its own.

I'm also surprised that natural gas is outgrowing everything else.

[–] kbin_space_program@kbin.run 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Natural gas is just Methane and is being pushed by big oil, since it needs all of the infrastructure they already have.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I'm surprised that solar isn't yet big enough to be broken out on its own.

and that's the problem. It's not even enough of our power generation to be its own separate entity on the graph, but these people expect it to just magically power the planet in the next 5 years.

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[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Can you provide the source of graph?

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[–] Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 6 months ago (1 children)

A lot of countries are doing just fine using only renewables to replace energy generation from fossil fuels. Nuclear is really expensive while renewables are the cheapest. There's just no reason to use nuclear.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

there are three.

Albania, Iceland, and Paraguay obtain essentially all of their electricity from renewable sources (Albania and Paraguay 100% from hydroelectricity, Iceland 72% hydro and 28% geothermal). You may notice Solar is not mentioned.

[–] Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I didn't say countries that already successfully did it, I meant countries that are in the process of doing so. Germany, for example, has no nuclear energy and is getting 60-70% of its energy from renewables. There are countries that are already further along but building renewables takes time. Building a nuclear power plant also takes years but you get nothing from it until it's finished.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Germany, for example, has no nuclear energy and is getting 60-70% of its energy from renewables.

Gas and Coal are 40% of the Power generation inside German borders but that is not the sum of German consumption. When nuclear was cut more gas was used. This also completely ignores the electricity generated elsewhere in the EU that Germany is Importing.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/germany/electricity-imports-and-exports/electricity-imports-france

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403646/germany-monthly-distribution-of-electricity-production-by-source/

[–] Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 6 months ago

This replay and its sources fit as a reply to your comment as well

[–] Vrtrx@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

When nuclear was cut more gas was used

Thats just wrong. Fossil fuels actually went down while renewables went up.

Im sick and tired of the right wing imports "argument" from people that clearly have no idea how the European electricity market works. Germany has the capacity to easily produce all of its electricity but its way wiser to not do that and import from other countries since that can be cheaper than ramping up power plants. In the past Germany used to keep running coal plants even for export but CO2 emission certificates keep getting more expensive while other European countries have been expanding their renewable power plants resulting in cheaper electricity which results in Germany exporting less and importing some of that cheap electricity now because 1. exporting electricity produced via coal is less profitable now and 2. importing a certain amount is getting cheaper than powering up a reactor yourself. 2023 most of those imports (~50%) were from renewables btw. 24% of imports were from nuclear which is 3.6% of the whole electricity production and even that keeps decreasing.

https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/ein-jahr-atomausstieg-deutschland-100.html https://www.agora-energiewende.de/fileadmin/Projekte/2023/2023-35_DE_JAW23/A-EW_317_JAW23_WEB.pdf#page=44

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[–] daltotron@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

I'll take "useless arguing over a conflict of interests that realistically doesn't exist because none of the people arguing can actually do anything to solve the problem" for 500, Jennings.

jesus christ these category titles are getting really bad

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Aww you said feasible. I have fifteen unfeasible plans that I love including cement batteries.

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[–] Anti_Face_Weapon@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

This used to be true, and there was enormous investment in nuclear power.

But the truth is that renewables have come a LONG way these past few decades. In many places, renewables is the cheapest energy to invest in, cheaper than even Fossil fuels in many cases. And much much cheaper than nuclear.

Why build a nuclear plant when you can build diversified renewable energy sources for the same price or less?

As a very small added bonus, renewables can't be turned into bombs. Yet.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net 1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Its not cheaper if you only count the generation side you are ignoring Storage and Capacity factor those in and its not cheaper anymore.

Renewables are great while in combination with peaker plants as the renewables produce a good amount of the base load when the sun shines wind blows etc, That energy generation is dirt cheap no arguments there. The Issue is those Peaker Plants are OIL COAL and GAS fired in most cases. The ideal solution IMHO would be to phase out the peakers and replace them with grid scale power storage augmented with nuclear base stations to manage load and reduce the need for new construction of grid scale power storage. The issue with your suggestion is these grid scale batteries are projected to cost billions of dollars per project and if we forgo nuclear base stations to provide base load we would need a massive amount of these grid scale power storage stations in addition to also then having to generating roughly 90% more power than we do now from renewables alone to replace fossil fuels and to make up for inefficiencies in a storage dependent grid due to the fact that there would be constant losses of energy every time its transferred from generation to storage to use potential. Its simpler and more efficient make power on demand so I think we should take the current infrastructure and modify it. A turbine cares not what turns it. We can rip out coal fired oil fired and gas fired infrastructure and replace it with a modern generation of Small Modular Reactors ( it is proven technology ask the US NAVY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors ) With Peaker plants being transitioned to base stations this would make it so that the excess energy stored during the day can be tapped but we would not have to depend on it. Instead we can dynamically as needed (as the day ends in solar heavy locations or on calm days in wind heavy locations) start up the nuclear base stations to keep the grid energized using the batteries as a buffer on both ends as the Nuclear plants can not be cycled as quickly as fossil plants but can provide steady power on demand.

[–] IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Its not cheaper if you only count the generation side you are ignoring Storage and Capacity factor those in and its not cheaper anymore.

Cost per kW:

Nuclear: $6,695–7,547

Solar PV with storage: $1,748

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

You ran for the hills when I called out your mistruths earlier. You're still lying.

Here's more:

"Roughly speaking, the total cost of these solar-plus-storage facilities would be:

$8.4 billion for 10.55 GWdc of solar power, fully installed at 80¢/watt

$527 million for hypothetical power grid upgrades at 5¢/Watt

$7.8 billion for 39.3 GWh of energy storage fully installed at $200/kWh

Around $16.8 billion grand total, no incentives

So, Georgia, pv magazine USA just saved you more than $13 billion (as of today anyway)."

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/08/05/youve-got-30-billion-to-spend-and-a-climate-crisis-nuclear-or-solar/

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

He’s just peddling right wing talking points with no intention of actually examining the data.

Your comment is good for anyone else who stumbles across this and is willing to learn.

[–] antimongo@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I like nuclear and all, but I don’t think nuclear can fill the same spot as peaker plants. Nuclear usually fills the base load needs on the grid. I don’t believe there’s nuclear with ramp rates capable of competing with a peaking gas turbine.

Energy storage does fill this gap usually. My ideal grid would be a semi-flexible nuclear baseload (+ some ancillary services), renewable “mid-load,” and energy storage peaking (+frequency response, etc.).

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[–] daltotron@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

In any case me personally I'd rather just put a bunch of big fucking satellites in the sky that use solar power to shoot a huge microwave beam down at the earth and then use that to generate power. Fuck energy storage of solar, just shoot it around the earth with a big set of microwave lasers and mirrors.

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

A furry peddling far right talking points.

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