this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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This keeps getting brought up and it's simply not true. No, your phone isn't listening to you, plenty of tests have been done. It could easily be traceable with higher CPU usage, higher battery usage, network usage and so on, but there is zero difference between having a conversation next to your phone or the phone being in a literal sound proofed room.
Meta data, people you spend time with, what you look up online, your age, your hobbies, your interests, ads you have recently seen, location data, .. there's so much about you online that it's easy to predict.
And sometimes you talk about things because everyone else is talking about them. You're not that special.
It can be a bit scary how much you can predict about a person by just using a few simple facts (sex, age, location, income, ..).
It's funny because we've done this exact testing with the Facebook application on iOS by leaving my friend's iPhone14 with the screen locked next to Telemundo (a Spanish only public television channel) for 24 hours. (Our primary language is Ukrainian)
The next day, all of their ads were in Spanish.
So I do think additional research is needed for certain, the polling rate might be not as granular as you mentioned, but intermittent anonymous data collection like "primary language" could very likely be done passively with minimal impact on battery life, and it may be permissions-based and operating system dependent.
There is a lot of misinformation on what Facebook is and isn't doing. And a lot of it is pushing 10 years old.
Facebook has long had features that detect exactly what you're describing. They aren't recording it, they are fingerprinting it. The target is any ads and music that is played but it could go beyond that.
This is fundamentally no different than the way a device is passively listening for the "hey, assistant" phrase which just matches a fingerprint.
Anyone who is simply looking for immediate data transfer when this occurs is a fool. There is absolutely no reason it cannot hold the list of known finger prints and add them to otherwise normal requests. The same for anyone looking for cpu spikes; these fingerprints are highly performant and it's not recording, it's matching so Facebook can deny all day that they don't record your conversation and it isn't a lie because it's the wrong accusation.
You make me (a skeptic) want to test this in a robust fashion.
Source some foreign-language content offline without carrying/using electronics… record/catalog the ads shown to factory reset Android & iOS devices… let the devices hear the foreign-language content played on an offline system… record the ads shown afterwards. Ensure no other electronics are present.
What else would be needed?
Done in a bulletproof fashion (probably can get some blinding in there too), it would be ProPublica/EFF’s story of the year, and congress would get in on it. Think it could be easily done for a few hundred bucks in about a week. (Thus I’m skeptical of course, such a low barrier to entry relative to the front-page newsworthiness of the scoop.)
It makes absolutely no sense for advertising to switch all advertising to Spanish from a single day of recording. This would mean they disregarded ALL of the meta data they had on them. Location, things they visited, pages they visited etc. I've been on vacation and spoken a different language for two weeks and it didn't change the language of my ads. It just makes no sense to do that from a single data point, when all else contradicts them being/speaking Spanish.
Nice try, I'm still going to wear my tinfoil
Just make sure that webcam has a piece of tape over it...
"My phone is listening, it knows what I want!"
*Uses social media, doesn't use ad-blockers, and clicks OK to share data with 1472 Trusted Data Partners to make the annoying popups go away*
For “Hey Google”, “Hey Alexa” or “Hey Siri” to work your phone/smart speaker has to be always listening
This is only partially true. Yes, it's listening for those keywords, but only for them. Sometimes that's even an extra chip in your phone, otherwise it would kill your battery in no time.
Which is one of the reasons you can't just customize the command to whatever you want to say.
If you use those services, I would ask that you do a data takeout and actually HEAR what recordings they have.
We used an Alexa-enabled speaker, and it recorded many, many conversations that were not direct Alexa commands. Perhaps it was an "oops" type of eavesdropping, but Amazon still felt that the recordings needed to be saved on their server.
Mate, your Alexa is plugged in, it's not a phone. You agree to your Alexa constantly listening when you buy it. It's a feature, not a bug.
If your phone would listen as much as your Alexa you'd be out of battery in three hours.
Battery-powered bluetooth speaker.
For sure, I'm just pointing out that these devices are always listening, and someone can agree to the assistant features, that shouldn't include recording entire conversations that have nothing to do with Alexa.
And the thing is, even if you disable it, it's still listening. It just doesn't answer you.
Then how does Google figure out what music is playing in the background to display it on the lock screen?
I'm very happy to have GrapheneOS on my phone now.
I used to say the same thing, but now I have some serious test cases that are very, very, compelling.
As in: a subject never before broached verbally by me or my friend (or anyone I know, and I don't associate with many people), was discussed by me and my friend in the car, with exactly 2 phones in the car, one of which is de-googled (i.e. Runs a non-Google OS with no Google Play, etc).
Both of us receive ads for that subject the next day.
Mind, neither of us had even thought about that subject before, and it was something way out of left field for both of us - as in not at all related to anything in our lives, and was a complete "shower thought" moment for me.
I get there's a lot of predictive analysis out there, but you're talking predicting something for two people with vastly different lives (we're decades apart in age, for example, in very different fields).
And this ad had nothing to do with our common ground either.
I simply can't buy the predictive analysis on this one.
I've never used any of the usual social media nonsense (it always bothered me, the invasiveness was obvious - Lemmy is my first, and only perhaps a year ago and this particular event was 3 years ago), have zero social presence online - no photo storage, etc, have always kept things separated as much as I can (since the 90's, because we saw the data mining coming back then). And neither of us did any search for the subject, because there was no need - it was a throwaway kind of thought.
Yeah, so it's quite likely that you wouldn't have noticed the ad or thought about it if you didn't talk about it earlier.
The big question is why did this topic come up "out of nowhere"?
And there can be several reasons!
You unconsciously saw an ad for it (could even be a billboard while driving) and that's why you started to discuss this topic. If it's a new ad it now also pops up on your phone (as it's a marketing campaign) and you immediately recognize it because you've seen it before and discussed it
The ad campaign has been running for ages, but you never paid attention to it. Now that you discussed this topic with a friend you suddenly noticed the ad. Nothing changed ads wise, you just never paid attention to the topic
It's a popular topic in general, could be in the news, could be hip at the moment, for some reason you and your friend started to talk about it, where did it come from?
There's so many ways this can go. And if we go back to tracking: All it takes is for a friend of yours to later search something related and it's also hard tracked (and then linked back to you as you hung out with them). Which can be a double whammy. Your phone being "ungoogled" is also worthless if you use Google, Facebook, Instagram or whatever.
I agree with you, it's crazy people still believe this is happening. However the fact that they can collect so much data about you through other means that people believe they're spying on your directly is still pretty fuckin scary.
I watched a Jet Li movie in Mandarin with subtitles (on DVD on my TV so not through the phone or any app), and suddenly my search autocomplete is filled with Chinese characters. Ads in Mandarin. Hmmm.
And just to be clear I don't know Mandarin and have no searches or activity related to that at all.
Was it a smart TV or a dumb monitor? Smart TVs share tracking data about everything.
How did you acquire the movie? Did you purchase it online? If not, did you visit a Chinese supermarket? Or did you purchase it at a large store and had a membership?
Did you borrow it from a Chinese movie aficionado and spend some time with (or rather around) them?
There are SO many variables to get data from. Everything is linked. Everything.
Played a DVD, with a separate DVD player, over HDMI. It would be shocking if they can track that back to your phone and/or gmail account which wasn't touched. Not logged into the TV, so it would be seeing if it's the same wifi, or going through another HDMI cable to the chromecast.
An old DVD probably bought at HMV before smart phones existed.
???? So the microphone would hear Chinese in that way instead? It's the same fucking thing.
The extent you're going through rather than accepting the microphone is listening is fucking astounding. Occams razor.
Ok. Why does Instagram demand microphone access to doomscroll?
https://slrpnk.net/post/12530482
It's also noteworthy that listening to audio via phone microphones is terrible. Speech to text works like shit, and the expectation is that people need to speak as plainly as possible, and over a long period of manual adjustments will it get to a point where it's halfway usable.
Ever gotten a pocket dial from someone? Can you hear anything that even resembles speech over the rustling of fabric? Seems like a wild leap to assume that corpos are listening in on random audio, when the software designed around people specifically speaking plainly and clearly to their phone barely works at all.
Plenty of things to be concerned about with info privacy, but it's important to recognize the limitations of hardware.
Speech to voice has gotten extremely good by now, but the good stuff needs CPU power. Not something you'd run on your phone 24/7 without your demolishing your battery.
I also believe this isn't true, but did have something happen that we couldn't figure out the other day.
I was looking at this really specialized gaming keyboard on my phone (cyborg gaming keyboard). I showed it to my wife and we talked about it a bit. Later my wife, who's not a gamer and never looks up any of this type of stuff, gets ads for this hyper specific niche gaming keyboard on Facebook. She never looked it up on her phone, she has no signed in accounts on my phone, she is not a target demographic for this device. The only connections possible that I can think of is that Facebook does know we're married (though it's never used that for this sort of ads before) and that we talked about it with her phone in the room.
It was freaky and I still can't explain it.
That one is super easy. Your wife is near you and possibly friends on Facebook with you. The ad system knows that and that's why your wife sees the ad, as there is a high likelihood that you talked with her about this topic. Though the ad seems to have a shitty target audience definition, your wife should never see it if she's not into computers herself (waste of money marketing wise).
This is similar to a friend of yours having a new hobby, looked up a lot of stuff about it online, you hang out with them for two hours at a café and suddenly you get ads for this hobby (as it was very likely a topic in your conversation). No need to record your conversation, people are predictable.
sometimes it's enough to just be connected to the same wifi hotspot for a time. i've seen people i've met for the first time and spent an evening with bubbling up as friend recommendations instantly 10 years ago already, i'd assume they've gotten a lot better at it by now
Ok, so data used was:
Ergo, friends search data in similar locations will be used as part of your advertising profile?
Wonder why I don't get more makeup ads or something. Since the same should be true for stuff she searches for.
I think we can crack this case.
And they haven’t used it before that you’ve noticed.
Nah, that doesn't apply to today's devices.
There are millions upon millions of people using "Alexa", "OK Google", "Bixby" and "Hey Siri", and those services require the mic to be always listening.
That's how they work. And when they hear something, that data gets recorded to the company server to do what they like with it, including targeted ads and content.
And I would find it hard to believe that these corporations, with so many privacy-related lawsuits, aren't using these always-on voice assistants to further market to their users.
The phones have highly optimized functions to listen to keywords. That's the reason why you can't change "OK Google" to "OK Jarvis" or whatever you want. Your phone needs to do this locally without wasting battery.
Until the keywords get said the listening is extremely basic. As soon as you say the keywords then the full audio processing kicks in, often including sending what you say to a server.
Well, I'd argue that you can't change "OK Google" because that's a great form of advertising. I've even seen movies where they use "Hey Siri" or "Alexa" as a product placement.
For sure.
That doesn't mean they don't “accidentally” record completely irrelevant conversations.
And that also doesn't mean that what it does record isn't being aggregated so you can be marketed to.