this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
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Whatever you do, don't blame voters though. The only people who could possibly be at fault here are Democrats. Because voters are perfect little angels. Who can blame them for their strong desire for fascism? That's just human nature after all
I get it, everyone is upset that Trump won (including myself). But the voters are not solely to blame here.
Democrats put forward a candidate who lost to fascism. What does that say about your policies, your messaging, how the voters feel about you when you tell them "You have to vote for me because I'm not the other guy!"
Y'all need to accept that 1. The Democrats can grasp defeat from the jaws of victory like no one else, and 2. The American people want change, they want progress, they have had enough of the status quo system that isn't working for them anymore.
They spent the last four years living under Biden, and despite all the screeching about how well the economy was doing, Americans don't feel it. And instead of addressing that, or doing anything about it, Biden and the Democrat establishment would just point the finger at Republicans and say, "No, no, they're worse, trust us, they're worse, they're worse."
They've spent a year telling Americans, despite everything they're seeing and hearing from Palestine, that Israel needs this unconditional support, while the world votes to hold Israel accountable and the US vetos it, under a Democrat administration. Multiple times, while refusing to let any Palestinians on stage at the DNC to speak, but parading Republican after Republican because they finished licking Trump's ass and decided to give Kamala's a go. Arab and Muslim Americans organized a protest vote, over 100,000 strong in Michigan alone (which she's projected to lose, btw), and the Democrats sent Bill Clinton to lecture them on how Israel is only doing what's necessary to defend themselves.
So we've had four years of milquetoast progress at best from a candidate the Democrat's constituency already didn't like. He dropped out but didn't leave enough time for a new primary, so the Democrat Party pushed Kamala on us, and then had her run on a centrist, return-to-the-status-quo platform, while refusing to take any meaningful stand on Palestine, with their biggest policy being, "Hey, you have to vote for us because we're not fascist."
If the American people, people in general, don't feel like they're being represented, why would the feel like voting? This is a failure on the Democrats, 100%, for running platform policies and candidates that don't drive people to the polls. Say what you want about Trump, and there's plenty to say about the absolute piece of shit of a human being he is.
But he makes his voters feel listened to and heard, and Democrats may consider it regression, but Republicans get their policies done, and they show progress to their constituents. Democrats get nothing done, usually due to Republican fuckery, but the Republicans don't face similar fuckery, so the average voter doesn't care, they just see one wide getting their agenda accomplished and the other not.
So now I pose this question to you, and I'm genuinely asking, this isn't an "I gotcha, I am so smart!"
If a person doesn't feel represented by their government regardless of who's in power, and your life doesn't drastically improve under either candidate, well... What difference does it make which form of government is fucking you over?
You can say this but when a republican policy is "drill for more oil" and a democratic policy is "focus on clean energy," one is easier, cheapens prices, and has readily apparent effects. Many democrat policies are long term goals that people won't notice, and might even hurt them in the short term, but they need to be done. Medicare will increase taxes, supporting Ukraine and not taking Russian oil increases prices, and most people agree these policies are good things. Yet what is the biggest complaint under Biden? Skyrocketing inflation, because the average voter doesn't care about policy they just care how it affects their lives.
You're asking for an impossible solution if you want the party of "this is a hard decision but will benefit us all in the future" to have the same draw as "here's cheaper prices NOW, we'll ignore the future." Not to mention as you already said republicans will block any and all attempts at real change. It's completely unfair that even if 90% of a democrat candidate's platform is beneficial, that's not good enough since they don't have the short-term effects to wow people with. If democratic policies reduced prices and republican policies increased them (say, swap the stances on oil and climate), we could have a literal potato as the candidate and people would run to vote for it.
I've written a lot of comments this morning, and I don't remember which one's I've said what in, so I apologize if I'm repeating something.
I understand what you're saying, it's not fair that the Democrats have an unrealistic standard compared to the Republicans. But the Democrats have to figure that out and get over it, and they're just not.
I'm seeing a lot of polls now showing the biggest factor for Americans voting was the economy. The economy has, verifiably, improved under Biden, and I will not argue against that.
But polls also consistently show that, despite the improved economy, Americans don't feel it. And that's the problem: the Dems were presented this information (Americans don't feel better under this economy), and just kept doubling down, spouting metrics that mean nothing to the average American.
I think in response to the economy polling, Harris trotted out the $15/hr minimum wage increase. In our political hellscape, that's a progressive policy. But it's 10 years too late... Minimum wage should be around $26/hr if it was (and should be) tied to inflation, the magic buzzword everyone has on their mind. But they're not campaigning on $26/hr, they're barely campaigning on $15/hr.
Someone in another thread pointed out bodily autonomy and how much worse it would get under Trump. Fair enough, but what has Biden shown the American people he's done about bodily autonomy in the last 4 years? Why wasn't it enshrined into law at any point during the decades since the initial Roe ruling? Why should voters believe Democrats are actually going to do it this time and not continue using abortion as a campaign tool?
You and I both know the answers to all of the questions above are not black and white, their answers range from the complexity of different administrations to the limited power within the executive branch to Democrats lacking a political majority outside of a few months every couple decades, etc. I get that, but even I'm tired of it being an excuse, and the average American doesn't even consider the excuse. They just don't care: they see their money worth less, their paycheck barely increasing to match inflation most years, and laws not being passed.
On the flip side, Trump got a lot done in his first four years, regardless of whatever legal obstacles got in his way. This flies in the face of our constitution and the very rule of law and is a direct threat to our democracy.....
.... But he got things done. No one can deny that, Trump got things done, and he did things his base wanted him to. As much as Trump hates his base, he at least panders to them, and if he doesn't support them, he shows faux support, which is good enough. He represents the worst of humanity, is a serial rapist, convicted felon, racist, misogynist, sexist, xenophobic, transphobic, homophobic orange shit stain on the annals of history...
But he got things done, and in the eyes if the average American, Biden didn't, and Harris promised 4 more years of the same. So voters stayed home, and it is 100% the Democrats fault.
You've said a lot here that I agree with, but ultimately the responsibility is on the voters to be competent, critical thinkers that at least attempt to be informed. And they (we) are not. But unfortunately this just appears to be an entropy point built into our current system. And it facilitates one party over the other. Republicans are an ideologically unified authoritarian block that denies critical and strategic thinking in its platform and is structured only to identify problems but not sustainable solutions. They've always been this. The current Democratic party, otoh, is a big tent party focused on long term solution plans to nuanced problems and has many stakeholders that are ideologically opposed such that actual compromise may be fundamentally impossible. I honestly don't know if this CAN be overcome. It's a tough spot to be in. What i do know is that the next 4 years, at a minimum, are going to be mad dash of regulatory capture and federal collapse the likes we haven't seen since the 20s.
I disagree, it's a politicians job during a campaign to convince people to vote for them. I agree that voters should be informed, but if someone chooses not to vote, I view that as a failure of the candidate, not the voter.
You have the right to vote, you don't have the obligation (some countries do, and I wish we did, but we do not). And no candidate is entitled to a vote simply for existing.
Beyond that... Yeah, you and I are basically on the same page. I appreciate that you've been civil about this, and I want to reiterate: I do believe the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, by a long shot. I do believe they should have gotten more support, and I really wish they had turned out the vote.
But they didn't, and I don't think it's fair to blame apathetic voters when the worst option was "fascism," but the lesser evil was "status quo that you're drowning under, with a touch of genocide." Trump supporters? Yeah, they're... Everything they want the world to believe they are, they have no excuse for gladly marching into fascism.
But I don't blame apathetic voters for not wanting to participate in a system they don't feel represented in, and aren't inspired by either candidate to vote in.
Why though? Isnt part of living in a democracy an obligation to be well informed and making the correct choice, depending on whatever your ideological beliefs might be?
If inflation is hurting my family, isn't the proper course of action for me to figure out what the causes and possible short and long term solutions are? Why is the onus on the politician to wow me with buzzwords in a 10 second tiktok, which ultimately will be half truth at best? If anything I need to follow up with more rigor and view their platforms and their past records.
I get it, its too much work. I get it, the Democrats did horrible messaging on multiple fronts. Kamala was definitely reserved and filtered in all her appearances and facing an uneven playing field.
But to absolve 80 million voters (a second time) by saying "theyre just angry you see, they dont know any better where to direct this anger to" is unfair.
Ah, see, the general vibe on Lemmy has been to criticize and shame people who didn't vote, and that's where I thought your debate was coming from. I cast no blame on anyone who either didn't vote or voted third party.
If we're talking the 80 million who voted for Trump a second time? Oh yeah, absolutely, fair game on that front. The only defense I have for them, which I think is important to understand for Democrats to maybe start winning, is that they want change.
And Trump, as shitty as he and his cohorts are, showed them they can change things dramatically during the course of a single presidency. It's shitty change, and many of them don't live in reality, so I've just been discounting them entirely. But it's still observable change that usually aligns with what they want.
Biden/the Democrats have made change, but it's not... Flashy enough? It's not enough, the status quo isn't enough for the voting base they need, and they need to adjust their platform accordingly.
So yeah, if you're criticism is of those who voted for Trump, I agree completely, I'm as angry and disappointed as you are (though not surprised). I just don't think it's fair to blame non-voters and third party for the Democrats failing to convince them they're worth voting for.
You've probably seen this but this video is basically exactly why this is the case. I suppose the only path forward is for democrats to exploit anything they can and go even lower (like increasing the number of justices so you get a majority) and then both parties race to see who can exploit the constitution more. I think no democrat wants to do this because it would be insanity, but the Republicans have been doing it for years so there really aren't many options left.
Democrats wanted to incrementally improve things. Republicans wanted to round us up into camps.
Voters had an opportunity to prevent a christo-fascist dictatorship and they didn't take it. Moving things to the left in this country has always involved voting. Losing our democracy doesn't improve the Democratic Party. If there is another election, which we can't count on, Democrats are going to learn that they need to move further to the right to pick up votes. They've done it before, and they will do it again. They will look at the conservatives who voted and tailor a party platform for them.
Democrats could not care less about appealing to nonvoters or third party voters. They only care about winning, which is probably part of why they suck at it.
Voting should be a mechanical choice during elections. If people want better candidates, organize, and do the work to get grassroots movements off the ground between elections.
Instead of picking a strategy based on a subjective morality people should consider analyzing strategies based on their utility.
If a strategy advances a goal it's useful. If it doesn't, it's not. Voting for the Democrats demonstrates a wider voting base for them to move to the left. Moving Democrats to the left is the goal so this strategy is useful. Protest voting takes votes away from the Democrats so they look for voters on the right. This accomplishes the opposite of the goal so this strategy is not useful.
They've had four years to, and to the average American, they didn't. They improved things, but not enough for the average American to notice, or care.
In comparison, regardless of how he did it, Trump got things done that his base wanted.
They did that this time and lost. They did it in 2016 and lost. The Democrats want a return to the status quo, and nothing else. Americans want change, the status quo is not working for them, but the Democrat party will not try to rally the vote. They scream about Republicans and voter suppression, but where's the law mandating voting? Or making it a federal holiday? Or requiring paid time off to vote for essential employees?
You're talking about strategy, well, progressives want to align with the Democrats, right? The FPTP system only allows for two viable parties, right, because winner takes all, and third parties can't compete? Therefore, progressive third party candidates, under the current system, can't gain any political power because the system is broken, right?
Ok, so let's work within the system we have. Republicans are fascist, not very progressive, guess that leaves the Democrats. And they seem open to it! But they keep telling us no, now's not the right time for XYZ, we don't have the support, we have to stop/prevent XYZ. We keep voicing concerns and want our issues addressed, and we keep being ignored, told we have to get back to normal before we can move forward, condescended to, or outright dismissed.
You keep saying the Democrats will just keep moving right, and that's exactly the point I'm making, and the reason people didn't go out in droves for Harris. You keep saying the Democrats will just try to keep stealing Republican voters, well, then they deserve to lose. 37% of eligible voters vote, and instead of trying to garner that other 63% of the voters to come out, they'll cut off their nose to spite their face and refuse to adopt progressive, populist policies?
You're basically telling me the Democrat's strategy is, "Do what we say or we'll become more like the fascists." Cool, so delayed fascism versus fascism... Hence "what difference does it make if our wants don't matter."
No, voting is part of how we move the Overton window to the left. If we don't vote, it moves to the right.
The parties are not the same. Democrats passed the infrastructure bill, cancelled student load debt, and appointed judges to the courts that uphold our rights. They did those things in response to pressure from grassroots movements that showed the viability of progressive causes. Republicans separated immigrant families, took reproductive freedom away from Americans, and led an insurrection against our country. People who aren't watching Fox News or otherwise trapped in right-wing information silo can tell them apart.
There's no way to argue you out of a con. You've been duped and we need people like you to realize it. Or things will not get better. The people who sold you the both sides narrative are gone. They spread their misinformation, tanked American democracy, and now you are still parroting their talking points.
I am begging you. You have been fooled. Please believe me. Again, it is not possible for me to argue you out of this. You have to trust someone. If you can't trust me or any of the other people on lemmy saying the same thing, find someone irl you can trust. That's the only way you can get better.
First of all, do not tell me that I've been "duped" or don't understand the situation, because I could say the exact same of you thinking the parties are not the same. And to be clear, I did not claim they're both the same side, in fact, if you go back and look at a lot of my comments from the last week (excluding today), I actually explicitly point out that I encourage everyone to vote for Harris.
But she is not a progressive candidate, and she never ran as a progressice candidate. Everyone here is always screaming about "When someone shows you who they are, believe them" about Trump and his ilk, but none of you will apply the same scrutiny to the Democrats and their party leadership.
As the campaign went on, Harris moved further to the right, and that is evident by her adopting some of Biden's policies (Biden, btw, is still detaining immigrants at the border and doing all of the things we criticize the Republicans for, in fact, his administration actually helped pass a more strict immigration policy for the border). She garnered as much former Republican support as she could (no Palestinians were allowed to speak at the DNC, but they had how many Republicans parade across the stage).
This is the kind of shit I would expect to hear from a cult, not someone trying to have a rational discussion about the failings of a political party. She showed us she cared more about garnering the votes of Republicans than she did trying to win over progressive non-voters within her own party. Biden has shown us he's made progress, but not to the average American, and not in any meaningful way.
And y'all need to stop acting like Harris got on stage and by virtue of not being Trump was going to save this country. She's a career centrist Democrat who ran on a centrist platform, promising a centrist return to the status quo that centrist Joe Biden has been leading us through for four years.
Y'all keep trying to get your party on board with incremental change while they witness landfall change coming from the other party. Maybe the Democrats need to adopt more progressive policies and run candidates voters want to vote for for fucking once, instead of counting in someone to vote against.
Or they can keep screaming that our voices, concerns, and wants don't matter, and they can keep trying to pander votes from a demographic (Republicans) that will never fucking support them. And, just like in 2016, they care more about the support of people who would never support them.
They lost because of it, and that's on them. The Democrats need to win voters to their party, and this bullshit Republican-lite "we're not fascist and we totally promise this time we'll actually make progress for realsies" isn't working anymore. I hope they choose to go progressive, but looks more like the Democrats will just shift further right, alienating more progressive voters and giving fascism a stronger foothold next election (assuming we have one).
It’s not much different than all of you saying, “Do what we say or we will allow democracy to die. All because of a single issue in a country we didn’t know existed a year ago!”
Oh and also, “Do as we say, or the LGBTQ, and women in America will suffer! We don’t really give a shit about the hardships they’ll now face because you didn’t cave in and do shit we don’t even understand!”
Wow... So the constituents of a political party wanting their concerns and issues addressed and taken seriously, otherwise they just won't vote for a party that doesn't represent them...
Is the same thing as the political party, who is supposed to represent the interests of their constituents, telling their constituents to tow the line or they'll become more fascist.
Constituents: We want our concerns addressed and progress made for the working people.
Democrats: Support us unconditionally or we'll just become more like the fascists to win their support, since our actions show winning is all that matters.
You: These are literally the same argument, but the constituents are the wronger ones.
This right here is what I've been pointing out for the last week: Democrats lose because the party is condescending, dismissive, and insulting to anyone who dares voice criticism. So those 100,000 protest votes organized by Muslim and Arab Americans, the same amount that Harris is currently losing Michigan by, yeah, that's just a single issue voter who hasn't even heard of Palestine until a year ago.
How incredibly insulting to people you're supposedly trying to win over while completely dismissing their concerns. Would you like to join the Palestinian speakers at the DNC on stage so you can insult them to their faces? Just kidding, the DNC chose to parade a bunch of Republicans across the stage rather than let a Palestinian speak.
The DNC to every progressive voter every voting day.
What shit were Democrat voters asking for that they didn't understand? Seriously, I want you to explain that to me, because from my understanding:
Those don't seem like things Americans don't understand, maybe you and the Democratic leadership need to get off your high horses and maybe acknowledge that people want to see actionable change and not just election cycle after election cycle of excuses and empty promises.
And just a reminder, Democrats had decades to enshrine Roe into law, and didn't do so the few opportunities they had because it was more useful as a campaign device.
Nail on the head.
Well, you will find out what difference it makes.
Amazingly well said. This is on party Democrats. Don't let people convince you otherwise.
Dude, just admit that you're a Trump voter. The election is over and it doesn't matter anymore anyway.
I voted Harris, and my state went to Harris. Voted Democrat down ballot.
Guess that makes me a Trump voter. 🤷♀️