this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2023
1687 points (97.2% liked)

politics

19248 readers
2318 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

What an utter piece of shit.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] orclev@lemmy.world 85 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Against Ukraine certainly, but since he's not a citizen of Ukraine, then no. If these were US forces that he sabotaged, or the US was actually fighting in the war then it would also qualify, but once again that doesn't apply. It definitely runs counter to US foreign interests, but that's not enough to qualify (and probably good it doesn't, a LOT of stuff people regularly do it could be argued would run counter to US foreign interests).

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 69 points 1 year ago (5 children)

He did this with federal funds. And the US hasn’t declared war since, what, WW2? The Rosenbergs were executed for treason, and we never declared war with USSR.

[–] Jordan117@lemmy.world 50 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Rosenbergs were executed for treason

Espionage, actually.

[–] Daft_ish@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't know the legal definition of espionage but sure as hell seems like elons loyalty lies outside of the US.

[–] PostmodernPythia@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Elon’s loyalty lies with Elon. It’s never been otherwise.

[–] orclev@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The Rosenbergs were convicted on espionage charges. They were sending classified info to the USSR. That's different from treason although it's related. The funding angle is an interesting question though. It still wouldn't be treason, but it could qualify as... breach of contract maybe? Not sure exactly what the charge is when the government pays you for a service and you don't fullfill the service in a satisfactory manner.

[–] 4am@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Would this not be espionage? Or would he have to have been acting under the direction of a state actor?

[–] orclev@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Espionage would require providing confidential intel to a foreign power. As far as I'm aware he didn't share any intel, merely disabled the internet service he was providing within key areas. Even then, leaking Unkranian intel to Russia while arguably espionage against Ukraine would likely not qualify. He would need to provide confidential US material to Russia (or another foreign power) for it to be espionage.

[–] Questy@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Espionage can also encompass acts of sabotage, there are ways this could qualify if it was American forces affected. It's also a glaring example of why many countries maintain state share in major defence companies. No idiot scrolling conspiracy theories on Twitter should be able to not only breach operational security, which he clearly was since he knew the operation was underway, but also sabotage it.

[–] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee -3 points 1 year ago

This was not sabotage, Ukraine was violating the terms of service of Starlink.

[–] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

He did not actually do it with federal funds. These were donated Starlink terminals and service was paid for by SpaceX.

That's the whole point, the US government allowed civilian technology to be used in war by a foreign government.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He did this with federal funds

Apparently this was before he got federal funds.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Didn’t he get subsidies for spaceX and Tesla?

[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Tesla got some preferential loans in 2010, it paid them off by 2013. Now it benefits from buyers of any brand electric car getting subsidies... so, "kind of"?

SpaceX got government contracts for specific services... which could have been inflated or not, but didn't include Starlink (at least not officially).

This is different from direct subsidies like those given to Boeing, which also gets inflated contracts (see NASA's SLS), but in addition gets preferential tax discounts and lowered export taxes.

[–] thefartographer@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

This reeks of espionage. With a slight hint of war crimes?

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

This has nothing to do with being Ukrainian, but everything to do with being American, and actively working against American interests and official national and White house policies.

He is actively working against the support USA is providing, and has paid him for, and has ordered him not to sabotage or diminish.

This is treason, which is logical, since Elon Musk is a Trump supporter and they are both traitors and Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.

[–] orclev@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While I think we can all agree that it's treasonous or at least treason adjacent, it however does not meet the specific legal definition of Treason used by the US. Like most of the rich and powerful he's threading legal loopholes to do what he wants without actually violating the letter of any laws while simultaneously stomping all over the spirit of them. There's a strong argument to be made that he is committing sabotage against Ukraine, but once again that's not technically illegal in the US. I don't even think Ukraine has an extradition treaty with the US, so even if Musk was charged and convicted in Ukraine, there isn't really anything they could do about it.

At the end of the day, Ukraine fucked up by trusting and relying on a private contractor for their critical infrastructure. They were in a bind and needed a solution so they leapt at the first one that was dangled in front of them, but it was a hasty decision that has bitten them in the long run. For better or worse there's a reason that no nation relies on infrastructure they don't control for military support, and it's exactly this situation. Even if the hardware was manufactured by a contractor, they would make sure their country was the ones in control of it. Starlink should have been at best an emergency stopgap while Ukraine found another long term solution specifically because it puts their military at the mercy of the whims of a foreign national (not to mention the operational security nightmare where now they have a private US corporation able to literally watch and track their military movements in real time).

Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.

While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that's made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.

Pedophile is something Elon Musk himself apparently finds it appropriate to call people he disagree with. So I call him a pedophile because I disagree with him.

A Nazi is because he has shown quite a bit of Nazi like opinions and sympathies.

Here he is literally using Nazi imagery: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-shared-twitter-meme-nazi-soldier-image-2022-11?r=US&IR=T

Also I think it's fair to call Russia a Nazi regime, and Musk has shown several times he sympathizes with Russia, and he has used Russian talking points about Ukraine.

Same goes for Trump and his very clear Russian sympathies and connections, and Elon Musk is a Trump supporter.

So all in all, it's seems to me absolutely fair to call Elon Musk a pedophile Nazi. It's not a title I generally use about other people, only Elon Musk, because he deserves that title 100%.

[–] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

The US government never paid him to provide military service in Ukraine.