205
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
205 points (58.6% liked)
Memes
44066 readers
1705 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn't help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That's my thought anyway.
So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro
No surprise, given that genocide is the foundation of the western civilization.
Is there a single western civilization that wasn't built in the flesh, bones, blood, and bile of the colonized tho? Like, one.
Ireland, though they are extremely supportive of Palestine.
They understand what it takes to get a boot off of your neck.
Weeeeeeell.....I like the Irish and I think they've been awesome all around (the IRA and their support for Palestine), but even by their mythology they apparently did colonize their lands ages ago; something about defeating the Tuatha De Danann who themselves defeated the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians. The De Danann, Fir Bolg and Fomorians are depicted as inhuman beings but I personally think these were peoples who lived in extremely ancient Ireland who were defeated by the ancestors of modern day Irish people, but then, this would have been quite a few thousand years ago anyway and holding it against them would be silly (basically it was so long ago that it's not even concrete whether this myth has any basis in reality and certainly no trace of those peoples, their culture and their civilizations still exist; also even if you decide to believe the myth has some basis in reality behind it, Irish culture has not been a culture of colonizers for the last several thousand years).
That's not really a culture of colonizers even during the height of Ancient Erin. A possible analog for a past group that very well could be a stand-in for inter proto-Irish conflicts as much as inter Gaelic ones is so tenuous at best. Most cultures have something like this, and it would be tantamount to saying there was an inherent colonial culture in the Ho-Chunk people because the Wąge-rucge man-eaters might be a cultural memory of another tribe their ancestors fought against.
There is a world of difference between human migration and conflicts arising therein and what we would identify as colonialism. Why even bring it up as such? Plus the Tuatha De Danann from even a quick search seem to be theorized to be Gaelic gods recontextualized into a post-Christianization culture. So it is literally not even from a culture of colonizers, but the reformatting of their own beliefs to a context of a cultural conversion. They seem to have come to mean "folk" or people much later and originally the term implied godliness. And then there is the PIE stuff and war between gods with humans in the middle which is foundational to a ton of places meaning it could either be remnants of a way more ancient myth shared with the Vedic and Norse etc, or a recontextualization of unique traditions subconsciously along the same lines as more eastern Europeans and Indo-European cultures. Least that's how I view the Iliad elements in Irish myth, maybe a shared tradition or more likely later writers put characters and stories into a structure they already knew, ie the most recited myth in Europe.
We really need to be careful with history and modern terminology/conceptions. Cultures did not really remove one another necessarily, nor can we accurately talk about Bronze-Age and earlier cultures in strictly defined terms. We use names given to types of pottery we find to describe a general human presence in a large area across thousands of years. It is broad and ambiguous on purpose. Hell even more recent cases like the Germanic "colonization" of Celtic England is WAY more ambiguous than previous historians thought.
For that history and a good object lesson on how complicated human migration is to decode there is a great video by CambrianChronicles on Brythonic Britons and how they never disappeared https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs
And that's not to say that there was not a colonization and resistance in that case, far from it. There we have a material understanding of both cultures that can be defined even if the lines between the people of them is nonexistent in a practical sense. CambrianChronicles has several videos including one I LOVE on Arthur that drive home how originally Welsh/Briton Arthur was essentially a propaganda character for anti-imperialist movements. My point is the distinctions quickly disappear and framing there as being such a thing as "culture of colonizers" in a time when people hardly if at all identified themselves as having a culture is silly, applying it as far back as the etymological history and patchwork shifts in linguistic groups of the Bronze age is downright ahistoric. Especially with Celts, the very definition of which is hotly debated.
Another good POV is the short but wonderful history of the Bronze Age Collapse "1177: the year civilization ended" which shows some amazing research on how crises cause mass migration and why old models of how ancient Greeks came to Greece are pretty off base, with what was thought to be an invasion from the west by the Dorians might've been large refugee movements from Asia Minor which coincided with populations from Mycenean Greece fleeing eastward due to their problems. Heck the Sea Peoples are very possibly a phenomenon of various refugee crises and/or desperate moves by kingdoms we know for sure about trying to stay alive during what must've felt like an apocalypse.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That's because Ireland is a colonial victim, not a colonizer.
Curious, Tell me why should I support the Hamas instead?
You should not. But you should see the conditions under which Hamas has formed and how the Occupiers are at fault for this. The greater Palestinian cause is far more in the moral right than Israel has ever been.
Thanks appreciate the answer.
Emotional responses don't lead to any solutions. Only reason will create a peaceful two state solution.
The Victims should never bargain with the invaders. Slava Ukraini Slava Palestini.
"I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they're aligned with us and do our bidding" is the kind of honesty we're looking for from liberals on foreign policy.
Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn't be as mean to them.
To be fair that is what both sides are doing China, Russia, US, EU, India and Iran. They all support those who do their bidding. Though I have a feeling everything is fascist on your dictionary that does not align with your view.
Counterpoint: aligning with the west/the US is bad.
And why is that?
All the genocide perhaps?
My reason is simple why I would align under the US, my country has mutual defense on them. The neighbouring country who is China claims major part of my country. The US offers free speech, they are willing to change no matter how slow. They may be messy but atleast they don't prosecute their citizens for talking bad to their government. There is Women and LGBTQ rights. They got the big stick. What is your alternative?
Counter-counterpoint : alternative is WAY worse. Unless you count EU as dissimilar to US?
He's from hexbear, he only believes in Chinese totalitarian dictatorship.
Considering the United States is responsible for the majority of wars that have happened since WW2 and the pentagon is the worlds greatest emitter of greenhouse gasses, we’re the only country whose ever used Nukes, also the country with the most nukes, I think your concern for “cultural” differences is completely conceded, and ignorant, also probably coming from a place of overt or subconscious racism, which is sadly typical of westerners, especially Americans. America is so comically evil it makes North Korea look like a puppy (and I don’t but this axis of evil crap, America is the great satan).
There are plenty of places more “ethical” in the global south than the west- which again is mostly responsible for the planet burning down and endless global war- and they all pretty much align with Palestine. Not to mention Mass shootings and endless police violence is deeply rooted in settler colonialism, and ever present in colonizer and colonized countries. The west is a miserable and pathetic place, with awful values that constantly tries to hide behind a veil of homonationalism while being responsible for intentionally creating the most terrible, genocidal regimes abroad, like Israel. All y’all can do is cope, and seethe while the scientists brain drain off to China.
Oh boi that's going to be fun.
You don't stand my main point. US are bad sure, but the rest is just worse.
Also China brain draining scientists LOL and I'm the one coping?
Sorry buddy but the brim drain is real and only getting worse:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/business/china-brain-drain.html
No educated person wants to live in a society where college shootings among other mass shootings are regular.
Your main point is a lie, is all I’m saying.
You have no proof to back it up, nor are you actually engaging at all with any of the information or examples I provided that disprove that the rest of the world is somehow worse than the USA. The places that are, are only so because of decades of war, colonialism and resource extraction, the recent wars in the Middle East- iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Palestine are just the most recent examples.
If you’re too much of a coward to engage with information outside of your western liberal bubble because “oh no Lemmygrad” than it only further proves my point, you have nothing and the United States is the worst of all the shithole countries.
You're reading your article backwards. China is SUFFERING from a brain drain. China is LOSING their scientists.
The interesting part is they're not going to the US.
They're not going to the USA because its a MASSIVE shithole that doesn't value education (teacher shortage, miserable pay, regular shootings) or science (its politicians hardly believe in climate change, religious ghouls and Anarcho-capitalist "free market" neoliberal idiots). Conditions in large parts of the rural USA are reminiscent of Cambodia and the worst, poorest areas of the "developed" world. Source: https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-un-poverty-environmental-racism-743601
I don't blame the worlds smartest people for not wanting to come here, this place is truly pathetic, infrastructure is crumbling, homlessness is rampant and growing rapidly, with no fucking decent healthcare to deal with the mental fallout. The worst part, and the thing that makes the Untied States one of the worst, if not THE worst country on the planet is that is CAN fix these issues, but it CHOOSES not to, but endlessly funds the pentagon and military to continue it's overseas imperialism, forever pretending it's the hero and not the instigator. Sorry, but at least places like China do something about it, common prosperity seems to be more than just propaganda- it has massively improved the material conditions of its citizens. Massive home ownership rate, and retirement age is 57. No nation state is perfect but it, along with other AES stats and some non AES states practicing Keynesian economics are far better suited for living than America, unless you're rich or a racist fuking WASP.
Mike Pompeo has called china a Marxist-leninist state, before one of you libs reading this comes out saying "oh but China is capitalist." It's not, that's why they aren't living miserably like we are here, it's actually safe there, and they have a plan for the future. You can read China's five year plans, it's not some mysterious black box, and it aint perfect either but it's waaaay better than here where the goverment is perpetually in fear of shutting down. No nation-state is perfect, but least I know I wont get shot in a mass killing or for being visibly queer- and before you homonationalists come out of the woodwork, China's version of Oprah Winfrey, Jin Xing, is a trans woman. Shanghai has a drag scene. Chengdu is called the "Gay Capitol" of china.
Even if I did accidentally post the wrong article it doesn't affect my point that America is one of the WORST countries you could choose to live in, if you have a choice and aren't a millionaire or billionaire. For fucks sake, Cuba has a higher life expectancy because people here are so miserable, and healthcare is so poor that people are killing themselves in record numbers. I have yet to see you, or any other liberal come up with a shred of evidence, or even an argument for WHY you think America is better than every other country in the world. American Exceptionalism is a string drug, too bad I'm allergic to nationalist bullshit.
Here are many correct china articles by the way, the NYT is a propaganda rag I should have avoided anyway: https://www.science.org/content/article/china-aggressively-recruited-foreign-scientists-now-it-avoids-talking-about-those https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/04/29/abandoning-the-us-more-scientists-go-to-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/13/chinese-scientists-united-states-research-tech-academia-china-initiative/
This one by CATO tracks non-chinese ethic scientists, whether you want to believe it or not, it's a trend, because America is trash. https://www.cato.org/blog/abandoning-us-more-scientists-go-china
I can dig deeper if you insist, I actually have free time today.
Cuban life expectancy rising above USA: https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-now-expect-live-three-years-less-cubans-1739507
sorry buddy, but just because I mistakenly posted the wrong article, it doesn't disprove my point- literally CUBA of all places is safer, has better healthcare, and education than the United States. China is running circles around it with regards to infrastructure, technology and education, would sure be nice to have high speed rails instead of having to rely 100% on crumbling infrastructure and expensive gasoline.
And before you say "oh no authoritarianism" please, pleaaaase tell me how having a militarized occupying police force that can murder you anytime with impunity, and suspend your sacred "freeze peach" at their whim is somehow "less" authoritarian. The city of Portland did it during 2020, and it's a "Liberal" city. Your so called freedoms are just an illusion, the second you push back even remotely on behalf of the working class or minorities the mask comes off and the libs reveal themselves as the reactionaries they are, using every tool- including fascism - to suppress the movement.
The United States, is not just the most violent country on the planet, responsible for the majority of climate change, war, and poverty, but its also a miserable place to live for an increasing majority of it's citizens.
You are still very, very wrong in your analysis, most likely coming from a place of EXTREME privilege and ignorance.
Mask off lmao