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This. I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever and mass shootings have only been a weekly occurrence for about 10-15 years. It’s not the guns or the gun laws or even mental health issues (depending on how you want to define them); it’s some fucked up aspects of our culture.
It's multiple issues:
The list is very very long. The USA's cultural fabric that is the people's common heritage is being stretched and torn by those who believe they can make a profit from the scraps.
The USA is a young anglophile country, you've only had one civil war, I reckon you've got at least another one coming.
Licensing to carry exists in most states, though some have removed that. We also do typically remove access to guns (or at least the CCW depending on state and infraction) as punishment for breaking gun laws.
Well, and the biggest issue of kids being radicalized into Nazis online. Every one of these mass shooters have a manifesto.
Agreed. The root cause is multifaceted. People seem to ignore the fact that the shooters are almost 100 percent male, with the vast majority being disaffected loners, white, and young. What has caused these men and boys to fantasize about killing masses of people? It's far more complicated than folks like to admit. We want a simple scapegoat, so we blame guns.
Using your timeline of mass shooting increases, an immediate reason to consider should be the assault weapon law expiring in 2004. Data would back that up. We haven't had the same laws forever. https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/06/15/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/
Your own source shows that mass shootings weren't as high as they are now prior to the assault weapons ban, thus demonstrating it wasn't repeal of the law that caused the recent uptick. If it was, we'd see a similar amount of mass shootings prior to its enactment as well.
You still have mass shootings prior to the 2004 law. For instance, there was the University of Austin mass shooting back in the 1960s. The Columbine shooting in '99. We've been at this for a long time.
In fact, the frequency of mass shootings as defined by four or more people being shot in an incident has basically been flat since 1980 was only a slight increase from about 15 to 20 shootings per year.
It's a big difference is media reporting.
A Comprehensive Assessment of Deadly Mass Shootings, 1980-2018 (pg 12) https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/305090.pdf
Yes, but that doesn’t change my point. If it really was the law that made the difference, we would’ve seen more of an impact. Given that there are plenty of other factors contributing to mass shootings as well, I see little reason to credit the law with the prevention some people like to give it.
Exactly. Access to guns isn't the issue, lack of education and failed parenting is. I'm pretty fucking liberal but even in the single generation I've been alive I'm pretty sure parenting has gotten significantly worse. I go out of my way to make sure my kids let me know if stuff is bothering them and explain how to respond to things that frustrate them. I'm sure this is going to go into parents working 24/7 but that also isn't anything new.
Sure but the same party that works so hard against increased legislation for gun control gutted our mental health infrastructure and votes against funding and rebuilding it at every opportunity. They aren't interested in solving either end of the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980
https://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html
This last one is a ddg search - you can just pick which article you want to read about Republicans voting against mental health funding.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=republicans+vote+against+mental+health+funding
You're missing my point. Mental health issues aren't the primary problem when it comes to firearm violence and deaths. Republican resistance to laws that attempt to address mental health issues deserves pointing out, but not so much in this context, because that's not the main issue at hand. Liberals can be commended for attempting to do something about the problem more than Republicans are, but what I've seen of their views on the topic indicates to me that they too are missing the point. The problem isn't guns or severe psychiatric problems; there's a cultural element that no one (including Democrats, for some reason) aren't willing to address. Until we identify and focus on the actual problem, no progress will be made, because we'll just continue to fight about stuff that isn't that relevant.
Sorry, and thanks for claifying.
Is that cultural problem something other than "a good chunk of gun owners fetishize their guns and the 2A itself to the point where preserving those things matters much more to them than the fact that we've now traumatized a generation of kids with active shooter drills, and death by guns has become the top killer of children" - because I can certainly agree that this is a cultural problem, but can't begin to imagine what we'd do about it that doesn't involve changes to our gun laws.
Clearly empathy and logic hold no sway with folks who feel that way sooo...
While I do think gun fetishism contributes, the vast majority of gun fetishists aren't shooting up schools, and many people who are really into guns are also really into gun safety.
If I had to point a finger at any one cultural contributor, I'd say it's actually mass shootings themselves and the way our society has reacted to them in the past. These are always (understandably) treated like major tragedies, but people always want to know what was going on with the shooter, why they did it. There's ironically this huge outpouring of empathy (not sympathy) for the shooter, and these are often people who were very isolated and alone prior to their rampage. I think a big part of the reason we're seeing the rate of these mass shootings increase is that other loners are seeing that going out in this manner draws attention to whatever their personal cause was. So, it's a suicide method, but one that makes it likely people will finally start paying real attention to the issues the person felt plagued by, which is obviously attractive for a suicidal person.
The reason I don't think mental health issues are that relevant, despite what I just said, is that most suicidal people wouldn't even dream of going out in this manner. For those who do, I think there's other factors that make them prone to going out violently. Having problems with society and disliking the direction of cultural change is a big one, for example. There's a reason most mass shooters are conservative--traditionalism is on the way out in many respects, and a lot of people aren't happy about it.
Outside of mass shootings though, I also think there's a different kind of gun fetishism prevalent in poor, urban, cultures—and as much as people may not like acknowledging it—predominantly Black communities within those contexts. Some branches of rap have glorified guns and thug culture in general, and I do think this has contributed to the prevalence of gun crime in the U.S.
There are certainly many more cultural aspects that are relevant, but I think those are some of the strongest contributing factors.
I think that it is murky to wade into the division of blame when a shooting happens. I say that, but I want to clarify I'm not just referring to mass shootings - but also accidents, minor crimes that escalate, etc.
I think that malicious actors get much easier access to guns due to the pervasive nature of gun fetishists, and the common availability they provide of those arms, be it by legitimate purchase, theft of poorly-secured guns, or otherwise. I think more accidents happen with guns because gun fetishists are using them more often, and a certain percentage of them are acting irresponsibly - sometimes ignoring one or more of the rules for gun safety.
There are other countries out there with a high number of firearms, but absolutely no cultural devotion to them. A frustrated, mentally ill person wishing death on a community might not even know that three of their neighbors own guns, because they're always stowed in a safe, unused for most of the year unless they're getting cleaned.
Take two people - one who has a 25% chance of making a fatal mistake handling a gun due to clumsiness and lack of knowledge. Another, a gun professional who has a 0.01% chance of making that fatal mistake due to years of training. If the first person never handles a gun once, the chance of shooting someone is zero. If the second person handles their gun 8,000 times, the chances become much higher.
Yup, it's the sick concept of firearms culture, where holding a weapon becomes a character trait and the right to military arms is somehow necessary to protect one's home. It's fucking deranged.
...No.
this completely disregards the Assault Weapons ban and it's repeal. Which match with the numbers in a stark manner.
They do not and I've already addressed this elsewhere.
Okay fine, it's some fucked up aspect of American culture. Honestly, blame it on whatever you want because until that problem is fixed, the current gun laws are clearly inadequate and need to be immediately addressed.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they've finished solving the problem, be it mental health or Marilyn Manson.
You don't mean that though. No liberals do. That's why conservatives won't budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
And honestly, the mass shooting stuff is our best chance at convincing conservatives to change, because they're actually occasionally affected by that crap. Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
This issue is really complex. It's affected by different cultures in the U.S., political alignments, demographics and wealth levels. The mental health stuff is only really relevant if you're talking about how psychological and sociological issues contribute to extremism and social isolation, but most people just picture some schizo on a bad day, which is a microscopic drop in the bucket (and most people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia are not actually vioelnt, that's a bad stereotype).
I understand why most liberals want to get rid of guns; it's just that that's not actually the problem, and conservatives know it, so they fight back hard and we get nowhere. Sadly, I think more conservatives have to become victims before there's any traction in terms of putting appropriate safety measures in place that still afford conservatives the freedom to practice their favorite hobby.
So it goes. Meanwhile, we're killing the planet. Small potatoes in the long run....
Conservatives won't budge on this issue because they're cunts. They don't genuinely believe the "mental health" excuse and will actively fight any healthcare reforms because they will cost money that they could be shoving into the pockets of the lobby groups that own them.
The entire purpose of the line is to create the illusion of being reasonable by pretending they'd entertain the idea of gun control if only these damn progressives would meet their impossible requirements first.
We are at least 100 years from a mental healthcare system that is capable of quickly and cleanly curing "I want to murder people", let alone one that is free and available to everyone (even if they don't want help).
There's 20,000 mass shootings and 100,000 preventable deaths between us and that bullshit goal but Republicans couldn't care less. The voters will have their guns and the politicians will have the $1.6 billion dollars the lobbyists slipped in their pockets.
That's not how their cult works. When children survive school shootings and speak out against ineffective gun laws, the pro-gun community unite to spit on them.
Not only did a legal gun owner put them through the most traumatic thing they'll ever experience, more legal gun owners queue up to abuse them for having the gall to be traumatised.
It genuinely isn't, the pro-gun community just works hard to ensure the issue is so wrapped up in bad-faith bullshit that no progress is made.
They've spent decades lying and pretending they alone know the "one true cause" of gun violence, finally settling on "mental health" so they didn't have to give up their video games and rock music either.
The whole "cause vs symptom" argument is nothing more than a way to waste more time. They're fully aware that not only does it not matter, it's not even how doctors work -- they'd lose their license immediately if you turned up with a clearly broken arm and they denied you painkillers because "pain is just a symptom" and insisted on checking "the real cause" wasn't menopause or feline aids first.
So fuck em.
Introduce firearm licenses like the rest of the world, requiring a background check, safety training, mandatory safe storage, gun registration and actual waiting periods.
Make it a felony to buy or sell a firearm without one. Confiscate the guns as evidence of a crime then try them in court. They get their due process and when they're convicted, they lose their second amendment rights just like every other convicted felon.
If they'd rather follow through on their threats to become domestic terrorists than demonstrate their ability to be the "responsible gun owner" they claim, they can be gunned down by police like every other domestic terrorist.
Since 80% of mass shooters are already legal gun owners, I'm not even sure we'd notice.
Your calm and well-reasoned debate style, free of profanity and name-calling has shown me your infallible wisdom.
LOL, I'm not wasting my time on you. Have a good night.
Oh no, bad words!
your salty language is more than they can handle. another school full of dead kids? price of freedumb.
Monthly mass murder they can tolerate but the c-word? Unforgivable.
Daily*
I know, but we're too deep into the comment chain to make replying to the inevitable "actually, those are just black criminals in low income areas so they don't count" worth our time replying to.
Yes, I admire you for going through the motions in this thread, I've given up long ago. One of the rare topics where Lemmy regularly disappoints me.
Thanks. I enjoy writing and hate corporate propaganda and it gives me plenty of both to work with.
I underestimated the Marilyn Manson problem, which itself is a massive issue with attention-whore narcissists in general but distilled into a no-talent onanist fame-whore of almost (kan)ye proportions.
We need to remove these people to a safe space - safe for us - and resolve the issues clinically before returning them.