this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
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I hate how people treat genocide and other crimes against humanity as a reason to take teams and treat it like "you're either with team a or team b".
Any comment here criticizing one thing is taken as approval of "the other team" and I personally find that horrendous.
In America, we citizens haven't had any significant question where we were presented with more than 2 options as long as i can remember.
Manufactured consent.
Protesting and organizing movement outside the system is the only way the ruling class can be made to do something.
What a load of bs.
Exactly. Folks just prefer extremes, As if they enjoy to keep conflic going.
YES! It’s so frustrating! I've never seen any other Topic like that.
Politics? Sports? Religion? Tribalism is pretty much everywhere, probably part of our ancestral hard wiring and DNA.
Are you being sarcastic?
You're intentionally obfuscating the reality. No one is actively taking sides with Hamas. People are simply voicing support for all of the children murdered by the IDF, which pales in comparison to any of the violence that Hamas has inflicted on Israel.
No I agree with them. Demanding a public release of actual evidence to justify bombing hospitals has gotten me called a terrorist more times than I care to count.
I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.
I don't know if you realise but people can acknowledge that Hamas did bad things to civilians as well as Israel. The difference is some people can also acknowledge that the only reason Hamas exists is because Israel is a settler colonial state. Without Israel's crimes against humanity, there would be no need for Hamas to exist. People also have the ability to recognise the western media's attempt to falsely equivocate "both sides" when one is a genocidal attempt at an ethnostate backed by the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (and friends) and the other is a reaction to this.
“For forty years you try to strangle us. And then you criticize us for the way we breathe” ~ Fidel Castro.
Enlightened? Because I said I hate that people are using genocide as an excuse to take one of two sides? The situation isn't even encompassed in two sides, the country, the government and the people (and in the case of Palestine, also Hamas) are being treated as one monolithic beings with one agreeing mind each when they are not.
I'm sorry if your "if you're not with me, you're against me, here's a quote from a historical figure" routine didn't pressure me into trivializing crimes against humanity.
Edit: I'd like to point out how I've been called centrist for acknowledging there aren't two sides and this isn't a sport event deserving of fans.
Who is supporting Hamas? People have to be supporting Hamas for your original comment to be valid. The vast majority of people are clamoring for ceasefires and humanitarian pauses so that the Palestinian children can stop being murdered.
It's conversations like this that confuse me because who exactly is commiting genocide? I'm calling the take centrist because you're making out as if both sides are guilty of genocide when it literally is only one side (the government of Israel, the organisation that the original post refers to). It is a false equivalence. But if you think by me stating support for the liberation of indigenous Palestinians is making it a team sport where I'm somehow trivializing genocide then so be it, that's what you think.
Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel through terrorism. The only thing keeping them from committing genocide (as Israel is capable of) is not having the resources to do so. Both sides want to eradicate the other, but one side is much more capable of doing so. That doesn't mean that Hamas is somehow less bad.
No one is supporting Hamas.
No one should be supporting Israel's goverment, either.
Hamas's goal is to end the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. There is nothing genocidal about this.
There are Christians living in Gaza and Hamas isn't committing some crazy religious cleansing on them either. Their problem is with Zionist oppression.
- The 1988 charter of Hamas
Resisting an oppressive fascist ethno-state trying to colonize your land and murder your population is the opposite of genocide.
What you're saying is like saying Ukrainians fighting against Russia for their freedom is Genocide.
Sure, if Ukraine had been founded with the goal of exterminating Russia.
Mate, Palestinians just happen to exist and want to thrive. Stop ascribing some violent fantasy that never was to those poor people.
Are you saying Palestinians appeared from thin air to fight against your holy israelis who were living on that land for 2000 years?
I thought Russians hating on Ukraine were brainwashed. Sad to see people here on the same level of rethoric.
If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?
Hamas' blatant anti-semitism towards all ethnic jews is wrong. Hamas' desire for Israel to not be a nation anymore is justified.
Depends if they attack the government or civilians. Palestine has a right to defend itself, the hamas strategy is not exercising that right just like the idf isn't exercising their right to defend and instead are committing genocide. That's the point. Hamas would have my full sympathy and support if their strategy wasn't terrorism.
I don't support Hamas just like you don't. I don't support the death of civilians, Israeli or Palestinian. What I have a problem with in the general sentiment of this thread is people acting as if the Israeli government's actions are not the cause of this war. Hamas would not exist if the Israeli government never oppressed Palestinian people first. The PLO wouldn't exist if the Israeli government didn't oppress Palestinian people first. Hamas killing innocent civilians wouldn't have happened if the Israeli govrnement never tried to genocide Palestinians. You can argue that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, but the fact is Israel is the one commiting genocide at the moment. Making out as if both need equal condemning (although they need condemning nonetheless) is equivalent to giving a bully the same punishment as the victim who fights back. They are simply not the same.
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel. But especially fuck Israel.
If the victim fighting back is a punch to the face, I'd completely agree. But this victim fought back with excessive force and I can't ignore that either. I do agree that Isreal made their own bed. I've been yelling for years that all Israel is doing is recruiting more hamas members.
I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.
Desire for Palestinian liberation can never be centrist, sorry.
Whoosh
Whatever crimes the Israeli government committed (and there are many), nothing justifies killing civilians who have nothing to do with them, and that goes for both sides. Fuck anyone who murders innocent civilians for any reason.
the victim who fights back by... killing completely random innocent children. but i guess the instant that is over, it no longer happened.
I'm confused at your tone. it seems like there's more fundamental agreeing here than disagreeing. yes, one side has more power and has recklessly abused that power. but they both want to destroy each other's people, including innocent civilians. that's objectively terrible and is why there is no good side to take.
If conversations like this confuse you, why confidently share your opinions in a public forum on a subject that, by your own admission, confuse you?
The definition of a centrist is completely lost on you if you think the comment you're replying to is a centrist comment.
It's literally both sidesing the issue by saying that both sides are equally to blame. The comment intentionally creates a lack of nuance by making it seem like this internet firestorm are Hamas vs IDF supporters.
It literally doesn't say both sides are equally to blame, you inferred that.
You're framing Hamas as being merely a reaction to Israel's aggression, when they actively work, sometimes in collaboration with Netanyahu^1^, to maintain the status quo and insure they're own relevance and power. You're right that Hamas wouldn't have a purpose without the occupation, and Hamas knows it.
Hamas isn't a path to Palestinian freedom, they're an obstacle to it. Hamas are motherfuckers; don't defend them.
If we say Israel is responsible for the destruction wrought on her own people in reaction to her crimes, then we must hold Hamas to that standard too. But following logic like this makes everybody and nobody responsible and implies that Israel controls the terrorists and Hamas runs the IDF. It's also precisely the Justification Netanyahu uses for the bombing.
At the end of the day, Israel is the party with the power to stop this cycle, and that is where I think we should put our attention.
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to Israeli war crimes against Palestinians in the 1980's.
And of the two they're the one that publicly showed a moderating trend, only to have their attempts rebuffed in the mid 2000's.
They aren't nice people but understanding how they got where they are clearly tells us to stop supporting Israel.
Thanks for the info I wanted to access the article but it's blocked by a paywall/ email submission to view which I'm not too keen on doing. I know Israel had funded Hamas to maintain its own status quo many years ago but wasn't privy to the possibility it may still be happening. Was wondering if you had any other sources on this?
non paywall link : https://archive.ph/IBRw5
Thank you
There's literally no disagreement between you two. You're saying the same as them, but adding a historical context of how we got here. That really doesn't change condemnation of both nor finding the team sports here disgusting.