That's not really an answer to my question. "Control" does not get you sovereignty, and neither does "representing the people". It comes down to governance and international recognition. Mexican cartels control large areas of the country, but no one is arguing they have sovereignty. Similarly, there are many repressive regimes in the world that do not represent their people, but they maintain their sovereignty.

[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Your analogy falls flat because, while powerful, cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.

Ansar Allah on the other hand has set up its own governance structures. As I said, most of the populated regions of Yemen are governed under these structures. That’s despite a US backed campaign to bomb and starve them out over most of the last decade.

If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.

[–] n2burns@lemmy.ca -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Your analogy falls flat because while powerful cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.

Okay, what about IS? Did they have Sovereignty?

If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.

If you/anyone else thinks sovereignty is meaningless, that's fine but it's not what I asked about. My original question was how is this "A breach of sovereignty"? You don't seem to be arguing why it is a breach of sovereignty.

[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 months ago

Again that’s a terrible analogy. ISIS was an international insurgency that went so far as to explicitly reject the very concept of modern day nation states. Of course they didn’t deserve to be treated as a sovereign power.

Conversely Ansar Allah is a domestic organization. It’s commonly referred to as the Houthi movement because it has many leaders who are Houthis, a Yemeni tribe. They rose to power after the previous Yemeni government faced a crisis of legitimacy during the Arab spring.

[–] TigrisMorte@kbin.social -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

No matter how hard you stamp your feet, you don't get to redefine terms already in use.

[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’m not? The US is using an incoherent notion of sovereignty that just so happens to align with their geopolitical interests. Sorry if that’s a hard truth for you to accept.

[–] takeda@lemmy.world -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Even if you are right, which doesn't look like you are, then the Yemeni "government" started war with the US and other countries by attacking their ships.

[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I mean the US has basically at war with them for the better part of the last decade already. Also Ansar Allah did declare war on Israel.

[–] takeda@lemmy.world -5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think you meant Saudi Arabia. There's nothing interesting there in Yemen for the US government. They only decided to provide a response after one of Iranian/Houthi rockets was fired at their ship.

[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago

The US supported Saudi Arabia in their bombing campaign and also participated in the blockade of Yemen.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

The issue is that the sovereignty of nation states is a somewhat nonsensical idea that has little to no solid philosophical backing. Nations aren’t living things and shouldn’t have rights in the same way people have. They are imaginary constructs, and the consequences of this are inevitable debates over what is or is not a nation. But there is no clear dividing line or definition—and in this ambiguity, powerful nations are free to recognize or ignore nations as they choose.

If you support the US action, you can claim that the Houthis are not a sovereign nation, the action was at the invitation of the legitimate government of this region against an terrorist organization, and was entirely legal and justified.

If you oppose the action, you claim that Houthis are a group of freedom fighters who have established a new separate nation that should be recognized, and this action was an illegal violation of that newfound sovereignty.

Neither can be said to be completely correct or incorrect because there is no solid basis for this idea of sovereignty.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club -3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I look at it more like this.

If you treat the Houthis as a non-sovereign entity, they can be attacked freely under international law by the international community as pirates.

If you treat the Houthis as a sovereign entity, they can be attacked under international law by affected nations as the attacks can be interpreted as an act of war.

So it doesn't really matter if they are sovereign or not.

[–] n2burns@lemmy.ca 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It matters because if the Houthis are a non-sovereign entity, then POTUS can order an attack under prior congressional approvals. However, if they are a Sovereign State, then attacking them would be an act of war, requiring congressional approval.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club -3 points 10 months ago

If the issue is with American law instead of international law, then you need to use the American list of recognized sovereign nations. Does the USA recognize the Houthis as leading a sovereign nation?

[–] n2burns@lemmy.ca -4 points 10 months ago

That doesn't answer my question either. I wasn't the one who brought up sovereignty, it was the article. It seems to ridiculous to say, this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty” but no one seems to able to assert the Houthis have sovereignty to start with.