this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2024
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[–] Tinidril@midwest.social 18 points 8 months ago (6 children)

It's tough to be critical of "liberalism" when everyone has a different idea of what it means. It might help to specify "economic liberalism".

Along with it's deep flaws, Liberalism is also associated with things like the abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, LGBT+ rights, etc. Conservatives also muddy the waters by blaming these things for economic hardship.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 80 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (55 children)

Liberalism has a definition, which Marxists have never forgotten, though thanks to two red scares and a cold war, others have forgotten. Now in Orwellian fashion, “liberalism” and “socialism” are floating signifiers, so we have liberals like Sanders calling themselves socialists despite never calling for the abolition of private ownership of the means of production.

Slavery did end under liberalism, but then again liberalism started it.

[–] Thordros@hexbear.net 44 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but have you considered that Anglosphere liberals are stupid assholes? Who don't know how the rest of the world uses words?

I thought not. Checkmate, tankie.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 41 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)
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[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 49 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Along with it's deep flaws, Liberalism is also associated with things like the abolition of slavery . . .

Liberalism is also associated with the invention and virtually entire existence of chattel slavery along with the exporting of the criminalization of queer people to cultures that did not feature such things.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 42 points 8 months ago (5 children)

Liberalism is also associated with things like the abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, LGBT+ rights

Communists had to pry these concessions from liberalism with organized violence, don't pretend like liberalism did these things.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 25 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Adding to this: if you like weekends, overtime, safety standards, or simply not working 19 hours a day in the dirt factory, you have communist violence to thank.

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[–] commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net 38 points 8 months ago

Liberalism is associated with those things because it allowed them to happen to avoid a negative effect to property rights (revolution, riots) once more radical people pushed for them. Liberalism is reactionary and regressive, but some liberals are easier to convince of specific rights extensions than others. You've been lied to a lot if you think liberals did these things

[–] axont@hexbear.net 37 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

Yeah you're the one being pedantic here. Liberalism has exactly two definitions that get used 99% of the time. Someone might say liberal to mean "socially liberal," which means open-mindedness in regards to progressive movements such as feminism, promotion of gay rights, acceptance of trans people, and all that stuff. This is usually the only definition used in the USA.

Or they mean liberalism as the broad ideological foundation of capitalism, with a belief in the promotion of free enterprise, distribution, public-private separation, and the primacy of individual rights. This definition is almost never used in the USA except by socialists, but outside of the USA this is understood as the primary definition of the term whereas "socially liberal" is regarded as a secondary definition.

And it's very easy to determine which one a person is talking about if you look at the context clues. The only other context I can think of where liberal is used is the academic term "liberal arts," but that refers to scholarly topics that would have been taught to people who weren't slaves.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 33 points 8 months ago

And you will notice that every person who calls themselves a liberal in America still believe in the broad ideological foundation of capitalism.

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[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 25 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

honestly there seems to be some confusion/distinction only in the US.

i think most people elsewhere mean mostly "neoliberal capitalism" when they say "liberal".