this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2024
173 points (100.0% liked)
memes
22781 readers
482 users here now
dank memes
Rules:
-
All posts must be memes and follow a general meme setup.
-
No unedited webcomics.
-
Someone saying something funny or cringe on twitter/tumblr/reddit/etc. is not a meme. Post that stuff in /c/slop
-
Va*sh posting is haram and will be removed.
-
Follow the code of conduct.
-
Tag OC at the end of your title and we'll probably pin it for a while if we see it.
-
Recent reposts might be removed.
-
No anti-natalism memes. See: Eco-fascism Primer
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Marx was a young hegelian. Hegel was an idealist. Marxism was created by Marx changing Hegel's ideas. Dialectical materialism took Hegel's dialectic and changed it from idealist to materialist.
Can you, however, point to any Marxist positions that are in contradiction to idealism in general and/or, in my case specifically, to mathematical Platonism? As of right now, I see literally no conflict between Marxism and idealism.
Karl Marx - The German Ideology
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm
My understanding of this passage is that in idealist thinking, ideas shape reality but in materialist thinking, material reality shapes ideas.
So, I finished going over the quoted part, and Marx is talking about specifically the type(s) of idealism that I do not subscribe to. He is addressing specifically the types of idealism that posit that only material stuff and mental stuff exist, and that the latter has some sort of 'primacy' over the former. My view on this sort of idealism is echoed by what you quoted, and I find that type of idealism rather silly.
The quoted part does not address the type of idealism that I subscribe to, one which posits that non-material non-mental stuff, like what mathematicians study, exists as well, and that some of it has no dependency on the other stuff, i.e. it has 'primacy' over, in particular, material stuff in this sense.
I will not be able to go through the entire quote right now, so I will do so later. For now, I'd like to address the last part of your reply with my reply to another comment in this thread:
That seems to be a roughly correct assessment of what idealism is if we replace the word 'reality' with 'material part of reality' (because non-material part of reality is still a part of reality). However, I see a couple of issues with the assessment of Marxism as supposedly being a materialist and anti-idealist school of thought:
Note that the middle part of this reply is just hastily copied from elsewhere. I did not edit it in case there are some relevant positions covered in the quote.
Idealism is when you have ideas and the more you have the more idealist it is. And if you have really high level important ideas then it’s Platonism
PS it’s bad form to not read someone’s reference and proceed to “reply” with a canned response. If you don’t have the time to respond say so and use that comment as a reminder for when you do have time.
I will actually address your points when I get back from a doc appt
Edit: this looks like something I'll want to make into a separate effort post. Will tag you when it's done.
I did not have the time to consider the entirety of the reply, and I felt that there was a part that should have been clarified. Considering that I already had an answer that I could have used for that purpose at the time, and was lacking time to properly write a full response, I judged that option as appropriate.
Will be waiting for the promised post. Do consider that it might take me some time to go over it, as I will both be getting busier starting tomorrow and I am experiencing some stress discussing this, in particular because people might think as if I'm just trying to argue for arguing's sake in this case or that I am trying to be rude.
Please tag me too!
Look into historical materialism. Marx's materialist method of understanding how human societies evolved hinged on giving primacy to factors like energy, production, population and ecology. It allowed him to construct an understanding of anthropology so advanced for his time that when I was being taught anthropology by my uni professors I legit thought he was a Marxist. Only later did I realise that marx's method is today being rediscovered and being touted as some new revolutionary thinking.
Another point in which materialism is important to Marxism is with economics. Whole today's economic theories on value consider it to be subjective, marx analysed value through constraints on labour in an economy. The method that he used was a kind of primitive linear programming. It then inspired the creation of actual linear programming, which won Nobel prizes and forms the backbone of economic planning even in capitalist firms.
Really, marx's dialectical materialism was one of the first scientific approaches to fields and political movements (economics, history, socialism) dominated by idealism and hodgepodge theories. It is the reason why marx was so influential beyond his years and beyond his contemporaries like proudhon and fruerbach
I am aware of historical materialism. I am not aware of any conflicts between it and idealism.
Marx himself seems to have only thought of idealism as specifically the type of idealism that posits that only material stuff and mental stuff exist. I do not subscribe to any of those schools of idealist thought, and I very much do subscribe to the notion that mental stuff is dependent on material stuff, and, in that sense, the latter has a 'primacy' over the former. And yet, I am still an idealist and I see no conflicts between idealism and Marxism.
I don't remember if you were the guy who mentioned believing in platonic ideals in math or what (platonic ideals come deeply into conflict with dialectics), but it seems as if your philosophical views are highly eclectic. Maybe you should study some authors who explain dialectical materialism.
I mean, mathematical Platonism seems to be the most popular view on ontology among mathematicians, so my views are not exactly special in that regard.
However, I have not shared these thoughts on Hexbear before, at least as far as I can remember. Also, please, don't call me a 'guy'. I am not hard-against that, but would rather not be called that word or described as such.
Ok, sorry about calling you a guy.
Mathematical platonism is rejected in the dialectical world-view. In fact, dialectics is entirely incompatible with platonism. Dialectics by definition sees all objects are having fuzzy boundaries that change over time. In dialectics, the definition of objects is context dependent and negotiable.