this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2024
105 points (98.2% liked)

traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns

1276 readers
54 users here now

Welcome to /c/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns, an anti-capitalist meme community for transgender and gender diverse people.

  1. Please follow the Hexbear Code of Conduct

  2. Selfies are not permitted for the personal safety of users.

  3. No personal identifying information may be posted or commented.

  4. Stay on topic (trans/gender stuff).

  5. Bring a trans friend!

  6. Any image post that gets 200 upvotes with "banner" or "rule 6" in the title becomes the new banner.

  7. Posts about dysphoria/trauma/transphobia should be NSFW tagged for community health purposes.

  8. When made outside of NSFW tagged posts, comments about dysphoria/traumatic/transphobic material should be spoiler tagged.

  9. Arguing in favor of transmedicalism is unacceptable. This is an inclusive and intersectional community.

  10. While this is mostly a meme community, we allow most trans related posts as we grow the trans community on the fediverse.

If you need your neopronouns added to the list, please contact the site admins.

Remember to report rulebreaking posts, don't assume someone else has already done it!

Matrix Group Chat:

Suggested Matrix Client: Cinny

https://rentry.co/tracha (Includes rules and invite link)

WEBRINGS:

๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ Transmasculine Pride Ring ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ

โฌ…๏ธ Left ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆ Be Crime Do Gay Webring ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆ Right โžก๏ธ

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

cat-trans

As a reminder, be sure to properly give content warnings and put sensitive subjects behind proper spoiler tags. It's for the mental health of not just your comrades, but yourself as well.

Here is a screenshot of where to find the spoiler button.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[โ€“] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 16 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (8 children)

Interesting excerpts from cissexual radical feminist Catharine A. MacKinnon's 1979 book Sexual Harassment of Working Women I found while skimming through it:

Physical characteristics which provide indices of gender include internal and external reproductive organs and genitalia, gonads, hormone balance, and genetic and chromosomal makeup. Strictly speaking, in several of these physical senses gender is not immutable, merely highly tenacious. A transsexual operation, with hormone therapy, can largely transform gender on the physical level, with the major exception of reproductive capacity. But then many born males and females do not possess reproductive capacity for a variety of biological and social reasons. Aside from these characteristics, some evidence of physical differences between the sexes in the aggregate exists in the following areas: body shape, height and weight, muscularity, physical endurance, possibly metabolic rate, possibly some forms of sensory sensitivity, rate of maturation, longevity, susceptibility to certain physical disorders, and some behaviors at birth (irritability, type of movement, and responsiveness to touch). The scientific research stresses the wide, if not complete, mutability of even these differences by social factors such as psychological reinforcements, type of customary physical activity, and career patterns. Moreover, on the biological level, the sex difference is not a polar opposition, but a continuum of characteristics with different averages by sex grouping. (151-152).

She boldly proclaims that "biological sex" (gender, here) consists of a multitude of traits, almost all of which were malleable in the 1970s, and all of which will eventually be malleable in the 3rd millennium. Hilariously, this radical feminist has a more progressive stance on transsexuals than most of the LGBT (including the T!) community. To her, transsexual women can absolutely change their sex to become women. Yet due to the sex-gender confusion invented in the 20th century, many trans people and almost all of their allies don't think transsexual women are really women (just their brain is ๐Ÿคช).

What hermaphrodism does to the concept of biological gender, transsexuality does to the concept of sex roles. The rigid exclusivity of each sex of the other is undercut in the clear presence of some of both. (154)

First, you'll have to excuse her antiquated language here; I don't think "intersex" had become mainstream until a couple decades later. Also, I find it interesting that she refers to "biological gender" and "sex roles" while today we call it "biological sex" and "gender roles." Maybe we should bring it back to emphasize how both are constructed rather than innate...

Anyway, on to the argument. So yes, the transgressive threat that intersex and transsexual people pose towards our patriarchal society's ideology of oppositional sexism needs to be reckoned with by feminists. Here the author just talks about transsexuality and gender roles, but the block quote above shows how transsexuals have the same effect on "biological" sex as hermaphrodism does. Serano talks about this in Whipping Girl when it comes to trans women, so at least it's still in the modern (serious) feminist consciousness. Society has a lot of mechanisms to minimize this transgression: arbitrarily define intersex as narrowly as possible so as to keep its official epidemiology low, insist that transsexuals do not change their sex, propaganda insisting that girls and boys are different, only allowing the most stereotypical feminine and heterosexual trans women to transition, etc.

Transsexuals experience a sense of sex identity cruelly trapped in a nonconforming body. (154)

Also, it appears she's been an outspoken trans ally in recent years as well, FYI.

Whatever the cause of this sense, it cannot be biological gender, since sex identity stands opposed to the body; nor can it be sex role conditioning alone, since sex identity is also opposed to that. (154)

Another own on the LGBT "community" (L stands for liberal here) - nowadays we have people insisting we were socialized one or the other gender, so we're not really that gender (they try to say this a bit more nicely though). But if that were the case, we'd identify with the gender that we were raised as! MacKinnon certainly expresses skepticism towards this line of logic.

The source of such a thorough rejection of standard sex role conditioning as well as physiology is obscure. But it is testimony to the power of the social correlation of sexual identity with physiology that, in order to pursue the desired behavior patterns fully, transsexuals consider it necessary to alter their bodies to accord with their gender identity. A final observation captures both meanings: first, gender identification may be better understood as a social definition of biology than as a biological definition of society, and, second, the power of that definition. (154)

Admittedly, I'm having a bit of difficulty parsing this, so my interpretation might be wrong. She's discussing gender socialization, gender identity, gendered physiology, and gendered behavior, all of which have social aspects. But then she makes the leap that transsexuals primarily seek to transition their gendered behavior/role(?), leading them to also transition their gendered physiology??? If this is what she means then I have some qualms. Wanting to be perceived as a woman and wanting to look like a woman (have secondary sexual characteristics that result from estrogen) are separate things, and they are also connected. But I'm pretty sure in the vast majority of cases, the conscious feeling of trans women is they want both, not that they want to be perceived as a woman and thus need to transition to attain this. Of course, subconsciously (and ultimately sociologically), that could be the case maybe... But it's not really possible to prove without a time machine or the ability to invent whole societies. The historical record of transgender people by definition does not predate the patriarchy. On the other hand, sex hormones and personal style do, so I'm inclined to think transsexuals would still seek transition even without sociological sex. Anyway, I wonder what her thoughts are now.

Commenting upon the justice of a proposed chromosome test for determining the femaleness of the transsexual tennis player Dr. Renee Richards, one woman observed: "I think nature is not always correct. . . . She looks like a woman, plays like a woman. She is a woman. Chromosomes make things scientific, but nature is not always a hundred percent correct." (154-155)

Nearly fifty years later and we're having the same debates, and the talking points have only regressed. ๐Ÿ™ƒ

[โ€“] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago (4 children)

FYI, transsexual is a really outdated term. Like, even moreso than FtM / MtF. It's fine in the quotes, it's ok if you want to use it as your label, but using it on other trans people is kinda weird, for example i really don't like to be called that because it's a term that has been used by cis people to pathologize us, and to gatekeep trans identities and exclude nonbinary people and / or trans people who do not want bottom surgery. Not saying you're doing that, but out of context, still saying "transsexual" in 2024 may be viewed as a red flag in progressive or radical queer spaces and people may suspect you're truscum.

[โ€“] Hexagons@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don't exactly disagree with you and I certainly don't want to say your feelings about the term are invalid, they're very valid. I'd like to be very clear that I don't wander around calling people transsexual.

But for me personally, at least in a medical context, I think it's better than some other options. More precisely, last year my official diagnosis for health insurance purposes was "TRANSSEXUALISM", all caps, I still have the letter from insurance because I find it deeply hilarious for some reason I can't quite place, probably because "transsexual" is such an outdated term. This year they updated my diagnosis to "gender identity disorder" and I gotta say, I hate that. I don't think my gender is disordered, I'm just not cis, that's all. I'd much rather be labeled a "transsexual" than told I have "gender identity disorder".

It's part of the whole medicalizing trans identities fucking sucks, but those of us who need hormones do need to interact with a healthcare system that assumes all healthcare exists because we're unhealthy in some way. I wish my diagnosis could just be, like, "needs testosterone".

This got long, sorry. Basically, I, personally, only speaking for myself here, would much rather be diagnosed with "TRANSSEXUALISM" than "gender identity disorder".

[โ€“] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Historically, the "transsexualism" diagnosis is a subset of "gender identity disorder". Up until the ICD-10, "transsexualism" (F64.0) is the only subset of GID that is recognized as deserving of gender affirming care. That's what i was referring to when i said the term was used to exclude certain trans people, it's not just about gatekeeping them from trans communities, but putting up arbitrary boundaries to deny gender affirming care to as many trans people as possible. Neither of these diagnoses are in the ICD-11, which goes with "gender incongruence". And that term exclusively refers to dysphoria, not to being trans in itself.

[โ€“] Hexagons@hexbear.net 4 points 11 months ago

Good god the medical system is awful about trans stuff, isn't it? Absolute nightmare of a system, when it would be so easy to just give hormones to people who are like, hey, my life is better with hormones.

I didn't actually realize that was the history of these terms, thanks for explaining. I guess "gender incongruence" is better, at least it's not saying the person experiencing it is disordered. Still though, especially this far into transition, I don't actually feel any "incongruence". I'd be miserable if I had to stop taking testosterone, but having experienced that feeling, I wouldn't describe it as gender incongruence, or, frankly, even having anything whatsoever to do with gender! My body just runs better with a testosterone-dominant endocrine system.

Ah well, the medical system is what it is, and despite the fact that the terminology used for us fucking sucks, there's not really a better option right now.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)