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You can debate the need to arrest, but creating a ruse that ends up with the man being shot several times?

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[-] DougHolland@lemmy.world 83 points 9 months ago

From everything else in the article, there's no indication of anything necessitating a plainclothes operation of the U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, local police department, and the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, all with a made-up ruse to get the man out of his house. What's the point, unless they simply wanted violence?

Dude has every right to point a gun at plainclothes cops attacking his brother, cops who haven't even said they're cops. Kinda surprised he didn't squeeze the trigger.

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 32 points 9 months ago

Yep. And yet they plugged (or shot at) him at least ten times. No walking for you, buddy.

This is in the richest nation in human history. We could care for every citizen. We choose not to.

[-] VioletRing@kbin.social 27 points 9 months ago

I wonder how much money the 4 agencies involved in the raid spent. Like how many months of rent would that equal? At what point would it just be better to send a single officer with a voucher for a months rent? Would cost the public far less and give the family a months relief, allowing them time to save money and get back on their feet.

[-] DougHolland@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago

Sounds beautiful to me — kindness instead of cruelty, life instead of death, and a huge savings in expense.

[-] Drusas@kbin.social 11 points 9 months ago

Sure, but then the conservatives would be bitching about handouts.

[-] TwoGems@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Trump's entire presidency was hand outs for billionaire banks and corporations anyway that ended up destroying the economy.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tcja-2-years-later-corporations-not-workers-big-winners/

Just zero handouts to his stupid base.

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[-] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 21 points 9 months ago

Most people will do anything not to shoot. Even most cops.

I agree their ruse wasn’t needed and needlessly escalated the situation.

That’s the shit I’m beyond fed up with. The needless escalation of shit.

They wanted to feel all undercover.

[-] MaxVoltage@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

in GRIZZLY territory too of course they need a small firearm. jesus help these folks jeez

[-] QuinceDaPence@kbin.social 3 points 9 months ago

in GRIZZLY territory too of course they need a small firearm.

.22 is just gonna piss off a grizzly. I'd say .357 Magnum or larger.

[-] Drusas@kbin.social 1 points 9 months ago

As someone who has lived in grizzly country, .357 magnum is the usual recommendation.

You're better off crouching and covering your head than shooting them with a .22.

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[-] Polar@lemmy.ca 54 points 9 months ago

Why is America so obsessed with shooting first?

Last year we had an indigenous person kill a cop in Canada and then run into a field with his gun. Cops arrested him without shooting him, despite him killing a cop, and being in a group that police have dislike towards.

Then, he complained about having pain, and the police called an ambulance to check him out before arresting him.

I heard all of this live on police scanner.

Do better, America. Holy shit.

[-] ITypeWithMyDick@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago

Dont get all high and mighty. The United States is an amazing country! We have to deal with all this 'woke justice' every day bringing down our country. Once they are finally purged them we can finally have our fascist utopia rich straight white men will finally have all the power again, as demanded by the bible (which I hear is a great book, but honestly who has time to read these days)

[-] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago

Had they not pulled their ruse, most likely there would not have been an issue. This is a case where the cops were trying to be cute and someone ended up being shot.

[-] Drusas@kbin.social 3 points 9 months ago

Why is America so obsessed with shooting first?

It is literally what our cops are taught in training. Look up "Killology" if you haven't heard of it. And no, despite the ridiculous name, I'm not joking; that is what a big part of their training is actually called.

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[-] krigo666@lemmy.world 29 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

In Europe, specially in the EU, these "law enforcement officers" would have been immediately arrested and subsequently charged with attempted murder. And definitely would be convicted. These situations very but very rarely happen here. And when they do, the perpetrators are brought to justice.

An armed law enforcement agent in most countries of the EU can only draw its gun in very restrict conditions, mainly only if own or others life is in clear and immediate danger, not perceived danger but justifiable and objective danger, and can only shoot to prevent loss of life. Also the measure of force has to be similar to the one used by the threatening party, cannot be greater. For example, shooting someone who is at distance, alone, armed with a knife is not justifiable, since the measure of force of a gun is greater in this situation (longer reach). Only if the individual with the knife was very close and capable of causing death is the shooting justifiable.

Oh, and there isn't anything like qualified immunity here. There are some specific laws governing law enforcement powers and actions, but in general same laws apply for all.

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[-] theDoctor@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 9 months ago

As cities and states across the country pass ordinances cracking down on camping and homelessness…

Homelessness should only be a crime if houses are provided to everyone wherever you desire to live and then you chose to then be a public nuisance and sleep blocking a sidewalk or a street.

Until then, this is just disgusting. Our society is fucked.

[-] phoneymouse@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago

The shooting occurred after Roberts, who had a .22 revolver with him, pointed his weapon at the two plainclothes officers after they confronted his brother. He did not fire, police body camera footage shows. After seeing Brooks Roberts' gun, officers unleashed a storm of gunfire on him, the footage shows. Since Idaho is an open carry state, Roberts was within his rights to be holding the weapon.

[-] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Within his rights to have the weapon on him, yes, but pointing a gun is not carrying a gun, it's brandishing, and brandishing is a no-no no matter how you slice it. Speaking as a gun owner, if you point a gun at something, that means you have intention to kill it, otherwise you shouldn't be pointing your gun at it. Too many people watch TV and Movies and think that after you point the gun to let people know that you're really, really serious, you stop and give them a chance to rethink their choices. That's not how it is; if you're drawing a gun, you have the intention to use it (at least as far as the law is concerned), so the gun should only ever come out when you've already committed to the belief that this situation requires deadly force in order to preserve the life of yourself or others and it's time to act. Otherwise, the gun stays put. That's it, there's no middle ground there, either you have to act with deadly force to save yourself and others or you don't. Anyway, brandishing in and of itself is a crime basically everywhere, IIRC. But in so many words, regardless of how they may have provoked and mishandled the situation, it's likely that any reasonable court is going to find that the officers' response to the weapon being brandished was entirely reasonable within the expectations of their job.

So, pro-tip, if you're going to introduce a gun to a situation, it had best be because you're about to use deadly force for a justifiable reason. Otherwise, just leave that shit right where it is. In point of fact, there are people who have (unknowingly) shot cops because they believed that they were acting to protect their life or someone else's, and got off with it. In all fairness, people are held accountable for it way more than they should be; cops getting shot doing no-knock raids on the wrong house (for example) is a predictable consequence, and well, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The cops should take their licks on that and, rather than lock people up for not having the ESP to know it was the cops, maybe take a moment to wonder if they're really making smart choices here.

[-] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 7 points 9 months ago

So was he just holding it, or pointed it at them? Those seem like two very different scenarios

[-] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It may not have been legal since he was on federal land. He wouldn't have pulled a gun on them if they had not played silly games (Most likely) I state the most likely since we don't know much about him, but there is no indication he was a hardened criminal ready to fight law enforcement. I don't like when law enforcement creates scenarios where people feel the need to defend themselves because they're confused as to what is going on.

Had they just walked up and identified themselves, I do not think anyone would have been shot.

[-] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Agreed. It's likely that the cops set the conditions for this to happen; maybe not consciously, but still.

[-] DougHolland@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

Absolutely, and for many cops, it's not even subconscious. They enjoy confrontational situations where they have every advantage of law, gunpower, steroids, and the ever-present public perception that they're good guys no matter what.

[-] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 5 points 9 months ago

That is my issue. It is like a no-knock warrant where they kick in the door at 2am and kill the home owner.

I am not 100% against no knock warrants but they should be rare. I have read many stories where they ended up someone being dead over something more trivial that could have been dealt with during daylight hours and just talking to the person in public.

It is why I support reform. I am not anti-law enforcement at all but I am against bad law enforcement.

[-] mob@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

We do know that it is legal to have guns in national forests in Idaho.

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[-] WillardHerman@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Our world is a literal nightmare.

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this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
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