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I'm getting old (lemmy.world)

submitted 4 months ago by NeptuneOrbit@lemmy.world to c/starwarsmemes@lemmy.world

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[–] neidu2@feddit.nl 239 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (17 children)

The sequels aren't bad because they're woke (are they woke, though?), they're bad because they're bad.

For example, I think Daisy Ridley played the part very well, and the character fit in the overarching universe. But the plot was awful and predictable.

And somehow Palpatine returned.

EDIT/ADDITION for emphasis: I loved the acting. Especially Finn. I didn't find Kylo Ren to be a believable character, but Adam Driver did a great job regardless. Everyone did a great job with Ep VII, except the writers and Disney execs.

[–] Artyom@lemm.ee 97 points 4 months ago (3 children)

These memes always rub me the wrong way. First, they're making fun of hateful Star Wars fans, which is great. But they're also ignoring just how bad the sequels were. Make no mistake, they were BAD.

[–] Naboo_calls_for_aid@sopuli.xyz 46 points 4 months ago

This, heaven forbid a fan who legitimately wanted to like the movies just didn't like them. No problem with the time skip, the actors, love interests, etc. the plot just sucked, the story was haphazardly thrown together. Disney wanted to cash in on nostalgia and pumped out 3 movies with no prior planning or guiding direction between the films. But if anyone complains they're being hypercritical, or racist, or sexist, or doesn't appreciate the spirit of the movies. Fuck that, at least Filoni is slowly fixing it. Stomach literally sank when I learned he wasn't in charge of the acolyte in some form.

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[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 48 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (7 children)

Episode 7 is still good. Is it a rip of episode 4? Sure. But it's still actually fun to watch, with good pacing, and good characters.

Also, Kylo stopping, and holding, a blaster shot mid shoot is fucking cool!

[–] burgersc12@mander.xyz 53 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The biggest problem with episode 7 is that it gives us "Empire vs. Rebels 2" which i hate as the direction for the future that episode 6 set up. The second biggest problem is its a bunch of mystery boxes with no plans to back them up i.e why is Rey important? Who the fuck is the green goggle lady? Why is Luke a hermit? What is the purpose of the map to Luke? Who fucking cares cause JJ sure didn't

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 22 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

But it’s still actually fun to watch, with his pacing, and good characters.

I disagree with all of this.

Eight was half of a good movie. Seven was a series of vinettes of varying quality that ended in disappointment.

[–] IMongoose@lemmy.world 18 points 4 months ago

7 is fine, 8 is better imo, 9 is atrocious. If they were able to just make 9 decent the sequels would be acceptable. They really, really needed to have these movies thought out from the start though. You can absolutely tell they have no idea where the story goes from one movie to the next.

[–] Zorque@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago

It's so fucking cool... and makes no god damn sense whatsoever. Especially when you realize he's supposed to be some hotheaded half-trained guy who probably has undiagnosed ADHD. He couldn't concentrate enough to do that if he was sitting meditating in the most serene place in the galaxy, much less in the middle of a trainwreck that the scene took place in.

It was unimaginably forced with no basis in plot or the established universe.

Which pretty much speaks to the entire direction of the sequels in general. "Ooh, pretty... but super fucking dumb"

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[–] Bassman1805@lemmy.world 20 points 4 months ago (3 children)

There was some social commentary in that golden casino planet where the rich lived in excess while the poor barely got by (pay no attention to the Jabba behind the curtain)

And, of course, they cast minorities in leading roles!

[–] disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world 28 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Lando Calrissian deserved more screen time in the original trilogy. He was an incredible character.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

There was some social commentary in that golden casino planet where the rich lived in excess while the poor barely got by (pay no attention to the Jabba behind the curtain)

Good world building, but it did nothing to move the story forward. The entire casino planet could have been cut and the story would be unchanged without any social or story impacts.

If they were going for social commentary, they could have set it up to find out that rebel weapons like the X-wing fighters and whatever macguffin they needed so save the main plot line were built by slave labor.

Semi-evil procurement character: "Yeah, I understand what you need. I can have it built in a day. Its an extremely toxic manufacturing process and because I'm not set up for that work, 20 or 30 slaves will die but thats no problem. Yeah, I can get it for you in the day you need it."

They would have had to make a choice between save the slaves or getting the macguffin. They could have still chosen to not come away with the macguffin because they chose to save the slave labor and at least that would have given purpose to the whole distraction of that storyline.

And, of course, they cast minorities in leading roles!

I liked that part. John Boyega, among others, was a great actor. Kelly Marie Tran did as best she could with the bad writing.

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[–] Jimbo@yiffit.net 16 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Star Wars is about as a woke as it always has been. Some people are mad about strong female roles when the first movie that came out in the 70s and every after it has had strong female roles.

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[–] Orbituary@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago

Palpatine was supposed to return. The clones eventually were turned into a way to let Palpatine jump bodies. But in the immortal words of the Matrix, "Not like this. Not like this."

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[–] crossover@lemmy.world 92 points 4 months ago (5 children)

Obligatory “just watch Andor” comment.

Seriously. Go and watch Andor. It proves that good Star Wars content can be made. It has a diverse cast. You just need good writing and a vision. That’s what’s missing from the new content.

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[–] _NetNomad@kbin.run 85 points 4 months ago (2 children)

of course the movie franchise about killing space nazis famously had no woke agenda whatsoever until they gave a woman a laser sword

[–] JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world 21 points 4 months ago

I know right? Fucking liberals.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 20 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Misogynists hated Leia back in the 70s, too.

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[–] Omgboom@lemmy.zip 59 points 4 months ago (12 children)

The new show isn't great for reasons other than Disney being woke.

[–] HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world 50 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (8 children)

I feel like a lot of "woke" shows are not great, but they get a cult of defenders and haters boosting it's popularity because of some perceived culture war. When it's really just execs trying to make their ~~milk toast~~ milquetoast slop shamelessly appeal to a wider audience.

No one complains about Spiderverse (after it came out) because it was good

[–] oatscoop@midwest.social 32 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Bigots aside, I'm convinced most people are 100% fine with queer and gender non-conforming characters so long as they're well written.

People like characters that act like actual people -- not pandering, one dimensional, rainbow capitalistic tokens.

[–] Solemn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 4 months ago (5 children)

Like how Marvel writers lately keep saying they're getting hate for writing strong female leads, when really they're getting hate for writing idiotic Mary Sue's.

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[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 4 months ago (2 children)

milquetoast btw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milquetoast

confusing isn't it?

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[–] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

while not movie media, the same can be said with games. BG3 is blatently woke, hell the emperor blatently hits on the player regardless of gender and other elements. Elden Rings mythos is basically full of woke elements (Marika creating Radagon, who is basically herself, but in Male form to get into a romance with Renalla. just on this element alone, it is either considered trans (Marika having a clone who changed genders) or lesbian (if you choose to believe Marika is always female and trans not being a thing) as the relationship with renalla happened.)

while there will be people who will complain about it, if the contents good, people will overlook it.

[–] HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world 14 points 4 months ago

Totally, the other thing both of your examples did well is actually integrate the "Woke™" elements into their world in a natural and believable way. None of it unearthed established canon or went out of its way to score rainbow capitalist diversity points

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[–] blackbelt352@lemmy.world 49 points 4 months ago (1 children)

For as schlocky of an adventure the OT and Prequels were, they still drew on real world inspirations. The OT pulls inspiration from WW2 and the Vietnam War as the backdrop, a small rag Tage group of guerilla style freedom fighters fighting off the highly militarized empire with weapons that can destroy entire jungles I mean planets in its path.

The Prequels, for as bad as the dialoge was (because Lucas was surrounded by Yes Men instead of people who actually knew how to cover his weaknesses), was about the decadence of the 80s and the exploitation of the labor of 3rd world countries (see the disparity between Anakin being a slave on Tatooine and Padme being a queen of/senator for Naboo), in phandom menace, which quickly shifted focus to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and how republics, like the Roman Republic, and Weimar Republic became the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany, and how America was following the same path.

And this isn't really some reading between the lines speculation, George Lucas has said that these real world conflicts served as inspiration for the movies. Could it be post hoc rationalization? Yeah it could be, but it's kinda hard to make those justifications even years after the movies have been released.

The sequels just aren't pulling from any relevant sources. It was all nostalgia bait without any substance the first order is literally just Hugo boss wearing good stepping nazis 2.0, aka The Empire Again, the New Republic narratively exists only to be blown up by The Empire 2.0, everything is "Look its just like the Original Trilogy!" and it all lacks a cohesive vision and an actual hero's journey for someone to go through. Like everyone has great setups, a rogue stormtrooper, an ace pilot for the rebellion and a girl who survived childhood gathering scrap from dangerous derelict. And they just all get sidelined for all the nostalgia bait.

[–] Rolder@reddthat.com 18 points 4 months ago (3 children)

in phandom menace, which quickly shifted focus to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and how republics, like the Roman Republic, and Weimar Republic became the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany, and how America was following the same path.

Sir, The Phantom Menace was released in 1999

[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 32 points 4 months ago

The first WTC bombing was in 1993, and Oklahoma City was 1995.

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[–] theneverfox@pawb.social 41 points 4 months ago (17 children)

No, the writing was just bad.

I strongly prefer strong female leads (and my tastes only get more LGBT when it comes to novels), but those movies were terrible. Just horrendous. I still can't bring myself to watch episode 9, or anything star wars since then

I'm not even that big a star wars fan. I love sci-fi and fantasy, because I love the new ideas they contain - star wars was never special to me, it was just good

I'll never forget leaving the theater after episode 7, my whole department took off to see it on release. I just remember everyone being relatively satisfied, even the extreme star wars nerds, but I just looked at my team lead who I shared an office with. .

We used to talk about Star wars all the time, especially the extended universe, but we looked at each other and I saw pain in his expression, and I knew I shared the same look. I don't think we ever spoke about Star wars again

And after episode 8, I now just feel dread when I see a blaster.

It wasn't that nostalgic for me, it wasn't that my standards were unreachable - they were just bad movies.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It also felt unoriginal

The prequels go well with the sequels. Star wars is a story about collapse followed by heros saving the day and it all makes sense. It comes from both a hero's journey and tragic plays. The problem with the new stuff is that they abandoned the old way of story telling. Not only did they fail to come up with a plot more complex than big weapon destroys planet they completely failed to tell it in a way that made me care. It felt cheap despite having a much bigger budget than the original A new hope.

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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 40 points 4 months ago (2 children)

The original trilogy was hero's journey stuff, mythology for a modern age. Episode 6 was the weakest, though.

The prequel trilogy was an envisioned world - for all of its writing weaknesses, it felt like a living, breathing universe.

The sequel trilogy was lifeless. 7 was an okay start, and I actually quite enjoyed it despite being derivative, but 8 was muddled trash (how many times did Poe commit mutiny while they were doing the slow-mo chase?) and 9 was dreadfully mediocre.

And this is coming from someone who loves many of the spin-off media on their own merits, many even more than I love the prequel trilogy.

It's not nostalgia. Some of us just genuinely dislike how shit the sequel trilogy was, and how bad they did our boy John Boyega after episode 7.

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[–] audiomodder@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Hot take: Star Wars is not sci fi. It’s space western at best.

[–] derekabutton@lemmy.world 46 points 4 months ago (13 children)

The originals were fantasy. I's not a hot take, it's fact - Swords, wizards, castles, knights, the heros journey. Some of the other shows and media since departed from that. Mandelorean is a western, solo was a heist movie, and most the shows don't fit the fantasy tropes that well. None of Star wars, to my knowledge, fits sci fi at all.

[–] CobblerScholar@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago

The Thrawn book trilogies are probably the closest I've found to Star Wars being sci fi. There is a specific focus on real world physics in a way that is very absent from everything else Star Wars especially when they write about space battles. Only things that stay firmly fantasy and require that suspension of disbelief are, of course, the Force and Thrawns preternatural ability to read an enemy's battle tactics from their species artwork

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[–] Furbag@lemmy.world 31 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

Star Wars isn't bad because of "woke" inclusivity. It's bad because the people who were supposed to be responsible for carefully curating and engineering both the past and future lore of the universe were at the very best taking a maverick approach to storytelling and at worst actively trying to to sabotage the canon for the sake of their own selfish artistic pursuits.

I don't dislike the nu-trilogy because it makes an effort to include women and minorities in leading roles. I dislike it because it's an incoherent mess of a story that doesn't mesh at all with what came before it, and the only thing holding it together is the veneer of Star Wars, but only the parts that made Star Wars iconic and not necessarily the ones that made Star Wars good.

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[–] LordGimp@lemm.ee 27 points 4 months ago (2 children)

No I miss old star wars content. Specifically where Luke and Leia make out and where exactly George was going with that shit.

Jokes aside, pronouns is the dumbest possible hill to die on with regards to the starwars universe. OF COURSE gender is going to work differently when you put a bunch of wildly different species together. Gender dimorphism is not some universal rule the rest of the galaxy has to follow. Hell, sexual dimorphism isn't even universal ON EARTH. why the fuck wouldn't you run into a them or xir every now and then? What about those bug people from clone wars? You think bug people are gonna have mommies and daddies or what?

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[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip 21 points 4 months ago (10 children)

Why does every idiot who is not a Star Wars fan think that repeating the normie stereotype about it is very smart? Which is this pic BTW.

Star Wars since the OT and till around 2006 had very clear borders between, 1, that which doesn't get mentioned, but follows from what's shown, 2, that which doesn't get explained, 3, that which is explained by magic, 4, that which has decent, but very roughly cut sci-fi descriptions and, finally, 5, that which is taken seriously.

Disney doesn't understand how to use any of these categories, especially that core plot points can only belong to #5, that #1 is not just fan imagination, but part of the paradigm, that #2 is not a box for everything lazy, that #3 cannot be center of the plot, and that #4 is still necessary.

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[–] bblkargonaut@lemmy.world 20 points 4 months ago

I just wanted to see Luke in the role of obi wan or Yoda after decades of Jedi training be a hero and pass on his legacy by training the next generation. But I would have been ok with one heroic lightsaber battle, and a reunion with han, chewy and Leia.

Watching the last Jedi and seeing someone who tossed his blade away because he saw the good in essentially "Space Hitler" try to kill his own nephew because he was having a nightmare so out of character. Then having him overdose on the force and die like a chump, broke me. I left the theater in silence. The last Jedi is also the only star wars movie with out a light saber fight. No blades ever touched.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 18 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Watched Episode 7 yesterday.

That was from 2015??? Nearly 10 years ago, which is completely crazy.

Really interesting how it is newer than Episode 3, but uses all of the Episode 4-6 style.

The music sucks, but the visuals are very nice. I love how they made the Lightsabers and Guns so much more realistic.

I remember episode 8 or 9? Where literally every scene was stolen from Clone Wars. That was a bit lame.

Also crazy how their cast is still 80% male. I always wonder if people would be shocked if it was 80% female...

[–] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

The music sucks

You take that back. John Williams is an international treasure, and the only aspect which was consistently good throughout all nine films. Rey's theme, March of the Resistance, and Jedi Steps and Finale were all stellar in my opinion.

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[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 4 months ago

I do miss being younger and happier.

[–] Makeitstop@lemmy.world 14 points 4 months ago

Why do people defending Star Wars keep shitting on sci-fi and fantasy? "It's just a movie about space wizards with laser swords" they say, as though having fantastical elements negates all criticism.

The original trilogy isn't schlock. It's fun, relatively lighthearted adventure in a fantastical setting. It has its flaws, but there is genuine artistry there, and it resonates with people because of that.

And even if I am looking at classic Star Wars through nostalgia goggles, that doesn't invalidate criticism of new Star Wars stuff. Rise of Skywalker is a train wreck of a movie all by itself, no comparison needed.

[–] suction@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Star Wars is now the schlocky, uninspired, cheesy “sci-fi” that the original Star Wars killed by changing the whole genre back in 1977. It’s time that the next George Lucas emerges and ends the travesty that is Disney SW. I don’t see it happening with the risk-adversity of modern Hollywood.

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