Firefighter here. Sometimes a better and less harmful option is to let things burn and protect the area. I went to a semi wreck that was hauling diesel and on fire on its side in the grassy median about 100' away from a storm drain. Trying to put that out with just water would have become an environmental nightmare if all that fuel would have gotten washed into the storm system.
this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
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"But electric bad" is what this kind of news will make rednecks think, and they will over sentionalize the conflagration of an ev battery
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I went through "Bedrijfshulpverlening" (Dutch, if you want to run it through translate just in case I mess up the correct translation). I guess it's business first responder or something.
When we were attending the fire training part and we were teached about fires, someone asked "what if there is a car fire". They said: "starting petrol car fires can be extinguished with a portable extinguisher if you are lucky. But electric car fires, leave them alone. They seal the cars in special water-filled containers and leave them alone for two weeks. There are reports that even after the two weeks, when the car was retrieved from the water, the fire started again on it's own. Firefighters really hate electric vehicles".
Lithium is a metal right? Putting water on a metal fire usually just makes the fire worse.
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business first responder
"alright, is everyone here? this is an all-hands meeting. Where is Joey? Is he in the bathroom again? He's missed the last 3 meetings... Anyway. Top of the agenda, there's apparently a fire, right over there. Fires are kinda hot and so we have been sure to stay a good distance away, as to not raise the temperature of everyone's complimentary bottled water, handed out at this meeting.
Now it says here that we should tackle this situation as quickly as possible. Has anyone run the numbers by the finance team? We don't want to spend too much on this. The big-wigs upstairs never think about the big picture, and really I don't see why one fire is worth pivoting all our available resources. Samantha, yes?"
"Sir, the fire is growing at an alarming rate, shouldn't we just postpone the meeting and focus on the fire?"
"See, that's exactly the kind of thinking the execs have. But if we spend all our resources, cuts will be made, and jobs will be lost. Not mine, of course, but others. Did anyone do a PR analysis on us 'putting out this fire' versus just running a week-long 'we are sorry' ad campaign?"
(lol I just got the thought and ran with it)
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Is water the best choice for a chemical fire?
Depends on the chemical, but it is an appropriate way to fight a liion battery fire though.
You're fighting thermal runaway. Water is very effective at cooling and helps control the fire and keep the heat down. US DOT recommends water spray.
Maybe. Water is cheap, available in quantity, and non-polluting. Since a battery fire is self-oxygenating, I don’t think putting it out is something you expect. All you can do is take away the heat both to contain the damage and to eventually stop the reaction.
The water is non-polluting, the battery chemicals not so much
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I don't think so, but what else are you gonna do? Can't really submerge it in foam at a moments notice like you're supposed to
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Our town had to use an excavator and dozer to bury a Tesla car because it wouldn't stop burning.
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How much is this in Capri Suns?
950,000 Capri Suns
(200ml per Capri sun, 5 Capri sun per litre, 190,000 litres water)
But it would take a long time to open each packet and spray it on the fire.
But it would take a long time to open each packet and spray it on the fire.
- Lay the Capri Suns in the ground next to the fire
- Get another semi truck
- Drive over the packets to squish out the liquid onto the fire
- If the additional semi truck catches fire as well, repeat from step 1
Fuck. Get this dude into Congress right now.
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How much water does it normally take to put out a semi fire? Say a tire fire, engine fire, or the entire contents of a semi in flames? I couldn’t find the answer googling, but I did find that combustion engine semis burn at the rate of 7000 per year.
https://plattner-verderame.com/blog/the-dangers-of-truck-fires/
I don't even think this is the right metric to use.
You aren't putting a lithium battery fire out with water. You're just keeping it at bay until the energy is all used up. The more energy, the longer it'll take.
We might need new ways to deal with these fires, but it's not like we can completely submerge a semi in water.
I wonder how encasing the object in a fire retardant foam would behave, although we gotta think about the toxicity of that too.
Edit: I wonder if you could even calculate the amount of water you'd need to hold it off upfront based off the battery size and current charge.
There's already tools to deal with lithium fires, class D fire extinguishers, sand and vermiculite. When I worked heavily with lithium non-rechargables we had lithium disaster plans for fires, explicitly in that was alerting fire fighters that it's a combustible metal fire so they can react accordingly, those fires need to be smothered afaik, water was a big no no.
Generally though, the plan was, escape and enforce a quarantine zone because primary cells give off nasty stuff, if you can drop it in a bucket of vermiculite if it's out of the containment vessels and pretty much let them do their thing. Then once it seems like it's done, wait more time to make sure it's actually safe with 30 minute gas tests, then package them for safe transport.
The problem though is how do you do that in the middle of nowhere on the highway like in this case? We need something big enough and portable enough. They clearly didn't have that for this fire.
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Remember that non electric cars are still dangerous too. Just think about how often you see a wreck that has cops, firetrucks, and cops all around it. That isn't going to make the same level of national attention as an electric car burning would get.
There are a lot of reasons WHY news agencies disproportunatly show the downsides of green energy, and I'm hardly scratching the surface, but here's my personal reasoning:
News sites like to over dramatize green energy dangers as they are funded by fossil fuel companies (ads). Theres a large amount of disinformation that they misleadingly tell people, take for example birds running Into windmills is something a LARGE amount of people know and think is an issue. However, statistically fossil fuels cause ~50x (iirc) more bird deaths per unit of energy than windmills due to birds being an apex preditor. Another example is that nuclear waste is a big issue that will prevent nuclear energy from becoming superior when that issue was solved several decades ago.
Yes, elon sucks and some of his practices should be banned, but it's still green energy and you can't let it distract you from the benefits of all electric vehicles.
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removedant?
lol
Probably only shows up that way on lemmy.ml, which has a blocker for various things they consider slurs, which can become silly when you're dealing with words/phrase like "fire retardants." Looks normal to me over on blahaj, and the same over on lemmy.world
Probably only shows up that way on lemmy.ml, which has a blocker for various things they consider slurs
Lmao, the community most likely to complain about censorship...is practicing.... censorship lolol
Thanks for that. I was unaware that is how it worked.
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