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Only as valued as their productivity.
this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2023
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That is a big part of it.
When the first question you are asked for decades when meeting someone is "What do you do?" it gets ingrained that your only value is what you do.
Add in the fact that men hitting that age now have basically never received any positive reaction for expressing any emotions or vulnerability and usually outright been mocked for doing so and it is no wonder they are are hard group to reach...
And they're all totally socially isolated to boot. How the hell do you make friends as an adult?
And where do you even go? Civic centers, bowling alleys etc are dead. Moderate churches are disappearing. Car centric everything means if you have a disability or not much money you're screwed.
As with most things, the hardest part is the first step: you have to find a community to join. It can be anything, but senior centers are greater resources for older people that they unfortunately don't take enough advantage of. My parents found a seniors' program at a local college and started taking classes with people their age, which created an entirely new friend group for them. You just have to find a group of people doing something you enjoy and the relationships will likely form without much effort after that, provided you don't have crippling social anxiety or something else that makes social interaction difficult. Point is, once you get the ball rolling, momentum takes over; the hardest part is getting it (i.e. yourself) moving.
Left my country and the coldness (not just the weather) was such a huge part of it.
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I've seen a few people complain about the question "what do you do?" over the years, and I think it's pretty telling that most people seem to interpret that as "what is your job?"
For me, my job is a footnote to my life, it's not something I'm overly proud of, if I woke up rich tomorrow I'd never go back to work, it's just how I fund the rest of my lifestyle.
I tend to answer that question with my hobbies, things I'm working on, trips I'm planning, etc
Sort of a double-edged sword is that I do actually work a pretty interesting job that people really want to hear about when they find out what I do, and I'd really rather talk about the other things I do. Probably the one thing I miss about when I was a random schmuck working a shitty warehouse job, I didn't have to talk about work outside of work as much
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That's been one of the culture shifts I've noticed moving to the EU. People are a lot less likely to lead with that question here than in the US.
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I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I'm not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.
All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.
Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven't been back since.
I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.
Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn't find anything that accepted men.
I didn't need a "mens only" group, just someone who wouldn't turn me away due to my gender.
I finally reached out to one of the women's groups going "Look, I know I'm not your demo, but I hope you can direct me..."
They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.
There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.
Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.
The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a "sorry, we aren't taking new patients", they just completely ghosted us.
My wife finally found a therapist who would "see" her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.
But after all that... it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren't as lucky.
I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:
It's the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I've been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it's only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn't do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn't, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it's probably better than this.
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UnInsured? Skip step 2 and 3
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Find your health care card. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.
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Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.
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Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.
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Mass email to all of them. "Hi. I'm dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients." Send.
Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you're really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.
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Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.
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If they're not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you're at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.
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Hopefully you find someone that's a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.
Yeah, the Psychology Today site was the one the police directed me to and the one who ghosted us the hardest. :(
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Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women's groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women's DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women's DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)
Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one "somebody" will do it for you.
I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.
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I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in 2017 and it's shit.
The pain that comes with that is just phenomenal and there's no good treatment for it either. :(
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Societies that have been created around the concept that your life is worth as much as the value you produce. People are deeply ingrained with the idea that if you aren't part of the production line then you may as well die and get out the way for the next cog.
To this day, this mentality still benefits the higher up in those societies.
That's not just an idea - its physical reality. You can't get your physical needs met in old age if you didn't win the lotto. Suicide is the retirement plan for most of us non-boomers.
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Somewhat related, but I learned today that Phil Shea who worked as the prop master on the office, died by suicide earlier this week, he was 62. He had a family and friends who loved him, but clearly wasn't speaking to anyone about what was really going on in his head. Older guys tend to be more closed up about speaking up
Cuz society mocks and looks down upon men who open up and talk. There's very little room for error being a man.
Every time I've opened up it's been ignored at best and ridiculed at worst. I just stopped.
Thankfully I have a spouse I can open up to 100% with and will make me feel heard and supported. When I'm at a boiling point, she's good at helping me to ease up. If it wasn't for her though, my mental health would be in the gutter.
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Thankfully this is changing... I see a clear divide in attitudes in my workplace between the boomers nearing retirement, and the new kids (Gen Z) that are coming in fresh out of college. And all I can say is: good riddance. Boomers are fucking toxic, but the Gen Z kids see right through that bullshit.
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My dad died in his late 80s of Parkinson's. For at least a decade before his diagnosis he'd tell me that everyday when he woke up, he'd lost another piece of himself. He went from an active man in his early to mid 70s--he rode his bike 25 miles a day and weight lifted--to a shadow of himself very quickly.
It was tough to watch, and so much tougher for him facing loss after loss of his abilities. He spoke several times of "releasing" himself, but ultimately decided not to do it.
We are living longer, but that isn't always to our benefit.
Sorry for your loss. Your dad sounds like a good guy. I wish we all had a better and easier way to die with dignity and on our own terms.
Watching my Dad decline in his later years was really tough, the man I had known my entire life just fell apart month by month, week by week until he was just a shell of a person. I don't know when it happened, but the person I had known my whole life had already died before his body died later on. Seeing what I saw over the course of years as he declined, I would've completely understood if he had committed suicide well before. It would've been shocking and hard to take, but if he realized what was happening, felt himself slipping away, I wonder if he hadn't at least considered it. He retired a year before he died at 63 and never really got to enjoy his retirement.
The capitalists tortured your father out of your father month by month, week by week, until only a shell, no longer productive, was cut loose to die as it was no longer useful to them.
That is what the capitalists do to us while they live large and pat themselves on the back for it.
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Glad to see an article about suicide focused specifically on men for a change. I wish it went into more specific detail about the societal treatment of men and how it fuels their mental health issues, but some attention is better than nothing.
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I'll probably kill myself at that age too
Shit I'm 40 and regret not having done so.
do you want to hang out and suck each other's dicks? I don't even care anymore
Lemon party detected.
Lmao. No, thank you, but I appreciate the offer.
See, you do still have the will to fight!
Damn that's some therapy check mate shit yo
Going the drugs and Vegas route while be chased by 50 US marshals with fireworks shooting out of a stolen sports car in the desert. I Want the grand kids to think I was legendary and not a person stuck in a tomb of a body.
I’ve thought about it plenty in the last few years. The only things really stopping me is the idea of hurting my still-living mother, and my kids.
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