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There are laws in place for service workers related to minimum wage. The employers have to make up the difference if tips don’t meet the rate for hours worked. It seems to me that’s not sufficient for the times.

Hypothetically, if everyone were to stop tipping in the U.S. would things be better or worse for workers? Would employers start paying workers more?

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[-] drmoose@lemmy.world 102 points 4 months ago

Hot take but I think tipping culture is one of the main reasons why Americans are suffering from such large class issues.

In Japan tipping is offensive because it puts the customer above the server when it's a fair exchange between the two parties. It makes sense imo. For people to respect each profession it has to be treated like an equal value exchange. The server that brings my food is not my temporary slave but we have a social contract that they'll be hosting me as the representative of the restaurant and "forced donations" completely ruins this exchange. It's incredibly toxic.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 points 4 months ago

Hot take but I think tipping culture is one of the main reasons why Americans are suffering from such large class issues.

It's not a cause, it's a symptom

[-] metallic_substance@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

So, all of the general points you make about tipping culture are valid, but it's batshit crazy to say that it's "one of the main reasons why Americans are suffering from such large class issues." One of the main reasons? Are you fucking kidding?

[-] okamiueru@lemmy.world 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Don't be so hard on them. Consider that media is owned by private interests, and that's been their whole life. Unions are evil, worker rights are a privilege, and you wouldn't want to regulate or tax businesses if it means they would make less profit. They create the jobs, don't forget that. Nor should you tax private fortunes, that's already been taxed, even if it is actively used as collateral for loans and a mechanism to avoid income tax. On that topic... higher taxes on very high income is also unwise, because, you can avoid paying income tax by leveraging aforementioned loans, and that shouldn't be more inconvenient than it needs to be. Private ownership on necessities of life is also not a problem, especially when you have a legal obligation to maximise profit for stockowners, which I'm sure won't motivate higher health care prices, or motivate denial of coverage or reduced level of treatment. Same goes with housing being an investment. People got to live somewhere right? That's a business opportunity right there. Better not regulate that or tax that too much either.. Might reduce... value of housing... and you wouldn't just want anyone to get in on that.

Tipping culture is obviously one of the main reasons at fault here....

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[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It is definitely messed up, but it’s also the only reasonable way for people in a lot of more conservative states to make any money at all as service staff, because those states tend to have comically low base pay for servers because “they work for tips”.

It’s an intentionally self-perpetuating cycle that makes things more expensive for customers, and fails to pay the business’s workers what they deserve. It’s basically enhanced wage theft combined with a pricing structure that also intrinsically hides the fact that the business owner is also intentionally hiding something like 15-25% of their cost of business, and you get to make up the difference.

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[-] _sideffect@lemmy.world 36 points 4 months ago

I went to subway for lunch, and the machine offered 18%, 20%, and 25%

I gave zero because he's doing his job; if I would have sat down and he served my my sandwich on a plate and refilled my drink, I'd have tipped

[-] magnetosphere@kbin.social 15 points 4 months ago

Yeah. I’m reluctant to tip anywhere that doesn’t offer table service.

[-] pyrflie@lemm.ee 3 points 4 months ago

My only exceptions are Housekeeping and Valet, but for food table service(I include delivery under this lable) is required for a tip. Takeout is a no go.

[-] EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee 6 points 4 months ago

My only exceptions are Housekeeping and Valet

Out of interest, why? (I'm not American)

[-] pyrflie@lemm.ee 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Tipping in the US pays for service (base rates typically only cover base stuff room, food, parking, etc). Housekeeping and Valet are both traditionally included alongside wait staff. Valets are a big one as it typically falls under a luxury service, just check your mileage before tipping as you may double down in gas/wear if your car is nice enough. For Housekeeping this is only really for Hotels (not motels and not long term stay hotels) and it covers daily sheet/towel changes, garbage removal, etc.

[-] EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee 4 points 4 months ago

this is only really for Hotels (not motels and not long term stay hotels)

Forgive my ignorance but what's different about motels and long stay hotels?

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[-] dingus@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago

This is different. Counter service places do NOT make a tipped wage and so it is actually not necessarily to tip. I tip people who make a tipped wage like servers.

[-] EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee 8 points 4 months ago

How do you know which employees make a tipped wage? Does it vary by area? (Not American, I don't know)

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[-] phillaholic@lemm.ee 30 points 4 months ago

Everyone couldn’t agree to put a simple piece of fabric over their mouths in public to reduce the spread of a deadly virus. You’ll never convince everyone of anything. You’ll absolutely hurt workers. Period.

[-] dingus@lemmy.world 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

This is why it really bothers me when people comment that they refuse to tip anyone for anything. I get that you have a problem with the system. So do I. So do a lot of people. But all you're doing is fucking over that particular server in the moment. You aren't "sticking it to the man" or hurting their employer. You're hurting the poor sod just trying to make their way.

Please continue to tip people who are paid a tipped wage, even if you don't agree with the system. You're not harming the right people when you refuse to tip like that.

(Disclaimer: Tipping people who are NOT paid a tipped wage is not necessary...like cashiers at counter service restaurants.)

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[-] PolyLlamaRous@lemmy.world 18 points 4 months ago

Tipping is of course a major issue not just in the US, but in many other countries as well. There are a lot of good books written over the years on the subject. One was written by a career waitress that is worth reading and how it leads to the acceptance of sexual abuse of the waitresses.

It's fun to think about changing it and everyone just stopping it. If this is an important issue to you try and change it. If no one fights for what is right and progress things will only get worse.

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[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.run 18 points 4 months ago

The employers have to make up the difference if tips don’t meet the rate for hours worked.

Is that true in all states? I thought I read recently that there were still holdouts.

Anyway, in the immediate term it would be terrible for most tipped staff who depend on that money for things like rent, food, gas, etc. For employers to pay more, they would likely need to raise prices; smaller restaurants in particular can operate on some pretty tight margins and I doubt the big guys will take less profit. Where that ultimately would go, I'm not sure.

I live in Japan now and we don't do tips here. Things are more expensive in menu price, but there's no magical 20% to pay after. We also have single-payer health insurance system. Businesses are required to do some health insurance stuff for full-time employees, but I don't know what what point/size. Even if the employee has to pay 100%, health insurance and pension are income-based. Rents are also generally less crazy. As with everywhere, food prices and inflation are issues here, but people are surviving. The bar down the street pays 1500/hour to start (minimum in Tokyo is a bit over 1000/hr) and that's increased for the late night portion leading to a higher amount of pay.

[-] JohnWorks@sh.itjust.works 7 points 4 months ago

Honestly from what I've seen on YouTube videos it looks like Japanese food/restaurants costs less to the customer

[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.run 3 points 4 months ago

Depends on the type of place and where it is, but it can be cheaper. Beers here are quite expensive comparatively. I guess the caution I would give is that I've been back to the US once in the last 6 years (last summer), so things may have changed a lot there that I'm unaware of.

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[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I was in the restaurant industry for several years and I've never met anyone who was paid that difference. Sleazy restaurants just won't pay it because most servers don't even know about it. Even in more reputable establishments, when managers see tips are low, they don't just stand around until they have to pay their servers more, they start slashing hours. A tipping strike would be distributive, but it would probably lead to less servers and worse service rather than end tipping.

The real issue is that propaganda has turned customers against servers, when the reality is that the restaurant is their enemy. The restaurant is paying a starvation wage and expecting you to directly subsidize their staffing costs. The National Restaurant Association spends millions every year fighting local legislation that would pay servers a living wage, while simultaneously forcing restaurant employees to pay for certifications they need to do their jobs. They're pocketing money from both customers and servers while watching them fight over tipping culture.

There are a lot of servers who prefer tips, especially younger people who are more likely to live with their parents and want quick cash. But most older restaurant employees would prefer stability to quick, inconsistent cash. At the end of my time in the service industry, I had moved over to event bartending, where I was rarely tipped but made $30 an hour. If their was a large migration from a tipped wage to a living wage, most servers would see the benefit and get on board.

The problem is, in the absence of any legislation, the only efforts to change tipping culture come from individual restaurants, and they always fail. Many restaurants try a living wage and go back to tipped wage because they just don't do as well. No matter how many times you explain that the server's wage is reflected in the price of the meal, people see a $22 item that usually costs $20 and think it's too expensive, even if they're losing money tipping $4 on $20.

So, a tipping strike would certainly be distributive, but it's more likely to hurt servers and customers than restaurants. Trying to get ballot initiatives to end the tipped minimum wage locally would be more effective, but be ready to fight the National Restaurant Association when they come to town (and believe me, they will).

[-] TheInsane42@lemmy.world 15 points 4 months ago

Tipping should be to reward personel for excelent service, not to enable companies to underpay their workers. Every worker should earn a living wage. When a company goes bust when they have to pay workers a living wage, they have no right to exsist and should go bust.

[-] noyou@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

Good service should result in my continued patronage. This means the business is succesful and the employees deserve a raise. This is how it works for everyone else...

Why we've decided people delivering food to you should get a tip is beyond me. I don't tip my mechanic, grocery store worker or the cleaner at the office. They all deliver a direct service to you as well, but they shouldn't get a tip?

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[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 14 points 4 months ago

It has been a long time but when I waited on tables for $2.xx / hour no one ever told me about any minimum I had to make or the employer would pay more. If that exists it is new and I wonder how common it is. If my tips were shit, I took that hit and got no help from the employer.

I was fortunate to be from a state where minimum wage for tipped persons was the same as everyone. I also kept that rate when I transferred to a state where tipped employees were paid $2.xx / hour. My mistake was moving to a different employer and the lower hourly rate.

A lower hourly rate for tipped employees is pure profiteering bullshit on the part of employers. It should be outlawed at the federal level. There is no good reason for an employer to get in the middle of an employee and customer. Customers tip employees, NOT employers.

[-] cbarrick@lemmy.world 14 points 4 months ago

Worse.

Without tips, the employer pays $7.50/hr. That's not enough to live on, especially since food service workers are almost universally working part time.

With tips, the employer pays $2.50/hr, but tips can make up the difference to be somewhat more reasonable.

To abolish tipping, we need:

  1. To abolish servers' wage ($2.50) and pay servers minimum wage.
  2. Double the minimum wage to $15/hr.
[-] FireTower@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago

Just doubling the minimum wage isn't sufficient. It'd need to be made to match inflation and cost of living as they rise in the future.

[-] Toes@ani.social 4 points 4 months ago

I'm thinking the government needs to fix the prices where they are and force humanity to accept a 30$/hr minimum wage to gain back the equivalent buying power of an individual in the 70s.

[-] DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Tipping culture sucks, but good luck getting anyone who actively benefits from it to admit that. I'm looking at you, bartenders who spend ten seconds popping open my beer and expect fucking 25% of the fucking 8 dollars on top of taxes. Fuck you, you get ONE DOLLAR PER DRINK. I dont give a fuck if you think i'm a tightwad, fuck you shit's expensive, and you're lucky I'm even doing that. Go ahead, gimme that stinkeye see if I give a fuck.

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[-] Kbin_space_program@kbin.social 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The real irritation is that British Columbia has a tipping culture where pretty much everywhere is asking for 10-25% tip.

Restaurant staff aren't exempted from minimum wage here like in the US, so its pure greed on the owners part.

[-] Vampiric_Luma@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago

BC budtender. My managers are out-of-touch crazies that enabled tipping (5%/10%/25%) because, 'they feel bad we don't make much money', paraphrased.

That's great, love hearing that from my lake-house owning mega-rich hippie manager, but I've already posted a rant here about how my month's wage of part-time work is easily paid in a day of work with their ludicrous profit margins. 50% on cannabis where I saw 30% in the liquor industry. They can pay me a livable wage, they choose not to.

I have compounding evidence that they're shitty people wearing masks of integrity and compassion and I hate it.

Greed sucks :(

[-] JimmyBigSausage@lemm.ee 6 points 4 months ago

Sure would make it simpler.

[-] jqubed@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago

(This is simplified and generalized)

In the short term it would be worse for workers. Their employers are only required to make up the difference in pay to the non-tipped minimum wage (the normal minimum wage). With tips most servers are making above minimum wage (depending on the restaurant some servers are making quite a bit more than minimum wage; it can be a viable career for some). If a server had been making more than (non-tipped) minimum wage, and everyone stopped tipping, they would probably lose money since their employers are not required to make up the difference to what they had been earning with tips. Since the federal minimum wage is not a livable wage for most of the population, this would be very bad for the servers.

Longer-term it could make a difference, since those servers would likely start leaving their jobs for better paying jobs elsewhere and the restaurants would have to raise their base pay to compete or risk closing. To some extent we’re already seeing this in some industries. I’ve noticed most of the fast food restaurants (non-tipped) are advertising starting pay close to double the federal minimum wage. If the crisis became large enough Congress might be forced to finally raise the minimum wage.

Making employees rely on tips instead of paying them a fair wage is a bad system. I’m not sure how to end it in a way that doesn’t hurt the employees, though, short of congressional action.

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this post was submitted on 17 Feb 2024
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