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submitted 4 months ago by intelshill@lemmy.ca to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

The New York Times is one of the newspapers of record for the United States. However, it's history of running stories with poor sourcing, insufficient evidence, and finding journalists with conflicts of interest undermines it's credibility when reporting on international issues and matters of foreign policy.

Late last year, the NYT ran a story titled 'Screams Without Words': How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7. Recently, outlets like The Intercept, Jacobin, Democracy Now! , Mondoweiss, and others have revealed the implicit and explicit bias against Palestine that's apparent both in the aforementioned NYT story and in the NYT's reporting at large. By obfuscating poor sources, running stories without evidence, and using an ex-IDF officer with no journalism experience as the author, the NYT demonstrates their disregard for common journalistic practice. This has led to inaccurate and demonstrably false reporting on critical issues in today's world, which has been used to justify the lack of American pressure against Israel to the American public.

This journalistic malpractice is not unusual from the NYT. One of the keystone stories since the turn of the century was the NYT's reporting on Iraq's pursuit of WMDs: U.S. SAYS HUSSEIN INTENSIFIES QUEST FOR A-BOMB PARTS, Defectors Bolster U.S. Case Against Iraq, Officials Say, Illicit Arms Kept Till Eve of War, An Iraqi Scientist Is Said to Assert. These reports were later revealed to be false, and the NYT later apologized, but not before the reporting was used as justification to launch the War on Iraq, directly leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands and indirectly causing millions of death while also destabilizing the region for decades.

These landmark stories have had a massive influence on US foreign policy, but they're founded on lies. While stories published in the NYT do accurately reflect foreign policy aims of the US government, they are not founded in fact. The NYT uses lies to drum up public support for otherwise unpopular foreign policy decisions. In most places, we call that "government propaganda."

I think reading and understanding propaganda is an important element of media literacy, and so I'm not calling for the ban of NYT articles in this community. However, I am calling for an honest discussion on media literacy and it's relation to the New York Times.

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[-] ahal@lemmy.ca 50 points 4 months ago

I'm not American and I almost never read the Times, so I don't have first hand experience. But I hear the same rhetoric about outlets here in Canada.

My take is that yes, outlets can have bias on certain issues, but that doesn't mean we should write them off completely. Trust in media is at an all time low, journalism is struggling to survive. There's no media outlet in the world that doesn't make the kinds of mistakes that you outline here. The key is how do they respond to them after the fact. Do they issue corrections? How quickly? Where do they put them?

Some of your 'evidence' also doesn't seem like journalistic malpractice. For example, are they obfuscating poor sources, or not revealing an anonymous source? The latter is not malpractice. The former doesn't sound bad either.. Who decides if a source is poor? Maybe the source didn't have much to contribute so that's why there wasn't much detail on their background. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that as an outside observer that point doesn't seem very bad.

Anyway, I do think it's important to be aware of any biases in the media we consume, so conversations like this are important. But my fear is that if the conclusion is to wholesale stop trusting the media anytime they make a mistake or a bias is revealed (I.e all media outlets), we're going to be even more fucked than we already are.

[-] intelshill@lemmy.ca 13 points 4 months ago

After the fact, it's being revealed that their "sources" are consistently wrong and consistently in line with US foreign policy objectives.

You can say it's a coincidence, but...

[-] Candelestine@lemmy.world 20 points 4 months ago

"Consistently" and "in-these-specific-cases" are different things.

[-] intelshill@lemmy.ca 8 points 4 months ago

These are some of the most important and impactful stories since 2000. If the NYT can't keep their journalism robust for these, what does it say about everything else?

Oh wait, we already know: "Palestinian family collides with bullet discharged from Israeli weapon"

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[-] davel@lemmy.ml 44 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

But muh Media Bias/Fact Check says it checks out!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/contact/

Dave M. Van Zandt obtained a Communications Degree before pursuing a higher degree in the sciences. Dave currently works full time in the health care industry. Dave has spent more than 20 years as an arm chair researcher on media bias and its role in political influence.

Van Zandt is some hobbyist who was in the right place at the right time: the “post-truth” moment of Clinton’s loss to Trump and the string of Russiagate conspiracy theories and Kellyanne Conway’s alternative facts and the Cambridge Analytica hysteria.

The whole concept of the “left” or ”right“ “bias” being inversely correlated with factualness is garbage. These kinds of graphs, which try to convince us that centrism equals factualness, are garbage:

The core bias of corporate media is the bias of the capitalist class, but people like Van Zandt don’t seem to understand this.

The inner workings of corporate media were explained about forty years ago in Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent.
A five minute introduction: Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine

[-] nekandro@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago

Has he changed his blurb? It used to say:

This curiosity led him to pursue a Communications Degree in college; however, like most 20-year olds he didn’t know what he wanted and changed to a Physiology major midstream.

Implying that he changed to Physiology before graduating, and that his "higher degree" is a Bachelor's.

[-] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 5 points 4 months ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

[-] markstos@lemmy.world 31 points 4 months ago

I have been reading NYT’s coverage of this conflict. Their journalists seem to have a range of viewpoints and their coverage reflects that.

Here’s a story that’s just about the level of Pro-Palestian support:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/us/protests-israels-gaza.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

Here: “Invading Gaza Now is a Mistake”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/opinion/israel-gaza-invasion-mistake.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

The conflict has proved hard to cover because journalists have been targeted and killed, so there are a shortage of journalists on the ground in Gaza.

I’ve also appreciated the times when NYT has published follow-up pieces to explain when I found case where their own reporting didn’t meet their own high standards and what they are doing about it.

I agree we should hold them to a high standard, we should have a conversation about media literacy and be careful what we consume.

Regarding a possible NYT ban, I think it is both important to consider their totality of coverage behold what is seen as specific mistakes. Also consider the alternatives. What English language outlets have objectively better and less biased coverage of the conflict?

[-] auroraborealiz@sopuli.xyz 25 points 4 months ago

opeds are different. If the NYT framed the original article as an oped, fine, but it didn't.

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[-] intelshill@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 months ago

Literally any outlet that doesn't spin bullshit sources to justify warmongering?

Any outlet that doesn't get an ex-IDF official to write an article on Israel's war against Palestine?

Just basic journalistic integrity.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 months ago

Even NYT op-eds have to condemn Hamas in order to get printed. The range of allowable viewpoints is only as wide as the Overton window allows.

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[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 24 points 4 months ago

Topically, CNN did an article on that whole New York Times scandal, and they kept saying how there's definitely a lot of evidence for that mass rape story. They just wish the NYT would report it better. And then they linked back to their own piece and The Guardian's copy-paste job of the same hoax the NYT made up. 🤡

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Any western media outlet writing a pro israel or anti Palestine article citing "anonymous sources" or not providing evidence should instantly be deleted.

[-] ahal@lemmy.ca 15 points 4 months ago

Regarding the WMD thing, was it proven the Times was aware of the mistakes and published anyway? Or were they also deceived by the government like everyone else?

[-] grte@lemmy.ca 39 points 4 months ago

Not everyone fell for the lies. It's a re-writing of history to suggest that everyone was all aboard with the war in Iraq. That war was preceded by the largest protests ever to occur up until that point. I personally recall Hans Blix, the UN official responsible for weapons inspections in Iraq at that time, repeatedly telling us that there was no evidence of such weapons programs. The New York Times should presumably be at least as questioning as my, at the time, 18 year old self. Particularly since I turned out to be right.

[-] doublejay1999@lemmy.world 13 points 4 months ago

It’s very easy to forget how powerfully and unilaterally the government acts when manufacturing consent. Every control is exerted. The mainstream media a brought to heel. Dissenters are marginalised.

Bush and Blair were ruthless in this respect, over Iraq. A British government office, David Kelly, killed himself over it .

[-] ahal@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago

Good context to have!

I'm not commenting on this particular case because I'm uninformed, the Times very well could have completely shit the bed here.

But one difference between a news outlet and an every day citizen is that a news outlet pretty much has to report on what the government's position is. If the white house claims there are WMD's, that's something the public needs to know. Of course the language around how that gets presented is everything!

It sounds like there was too much blind trust in that statement and the language didn't leave enough room for scepticism in this particular case. But it's worth remembering that in other cases there's a difference between towing the line and reporting words as a statement of fact. The fact being that the words were said but not necessarily that the words are true.

[-] arymandias@feddit.de 20 points 4 months ago

I forgot the name of the specific tactic, but basically what the Bush administration did was leak unsourced information to the NYT and then after the NYT published it, the Bush administration used the NYT as source for the unproven claim. They did this multiple times. The NYT was knowingly used to launder lies that led to hundreds of thousands of deaths. And they are doing it again.

Think of how many Palestinians have been brutalized as a result of these heinous accusations. The fact that they canceled the Daily episode about this piece indicates that they knew something was fishy. The NYT is complicit.

And finally does it matter if they are either comically inept, or criminally evil. It has the same effect on the world and there should be consequences for their actions.

[-] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 months ago

Stovepiping

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago

They were aware the reporting was wrong and buried stories questioning the official line.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The people who own the NYT are not deceived by the government, they collude with the government. In the words of George Carlin, it’s one big club, and you ain’t in it.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 14 points 4 months ago

Or a largely reliable news source with certain red flag issues

[-] nekandro@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago

The NYT is pretty good about domestic news. In fact, I'd say they're one of the best for reporting US news. Internationally, they're a fuckfest.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 16 points 4 months ago

It’s not great on domestic news, either, in that it slants in favor of the employer class and in opposition to the working class.

[-] nekandro@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago

That's representative of US interests domestically. The NYT is specifically slanted in favour of the financial class, which you might infer from it's name.

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[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago

Like it or not, the New York Times holds the status of "Newspaper of Record", which elevates them above traditional news sources.

Now, as such, it's fair to say they should be held to a higher standard than, say, your local Fox affilliate. But by the same token you can't just discount them despite their problems both past and current. Thinking specifically of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/may/26/pressandpublishing.usnews

https://theintercept.com/2023/03/30/new-york-times-iraq-war-error/

[-] intelshill@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 months ago

I agree on this. For better or for worse, the NYT is representative of US news media to the world.

[-] friendly_ghost@beehaw.org 6 points 4 months ago

The podcast You're Wrong About reached a similar conclusion re: the Times' coverage of trans issues: https://youtu.be/Fq5YmS1R63Q?si=e086MXq6pKfFo4ex

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[-] turkishdelight@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago

New York Times sold the lie that Iraq had WMDs.

That is all you need to know about the NYT.

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this post was submitted on 03 Mar 2024
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