this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024
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The entitlement of the average right winger really is something to behold.
I don't highly enforce my pronouns. Not because it doesn't effect me but because being labeled a troublemaker who is hard to get along with is a career limiting move... And some interactions are so limited that it's not worth creating social awkwardness to self advocate. Days where this happens a lot make me depressed, grumpy and eats into the energy I have reserved to enjoy my leisure time.
Which is why it is so frustrating that some people demand that calling me by my dead name or refer openly to my sex using pronouns I hate is completely consequenceless that even when I tell them the only reprocussion to them is that I will not like being around very much them they get angry. Like I am cheating them of being owed that I automatically enjoy their company.
They are so bloody sensitive that the consequence of me thinking they are kind of shit to be around is somehow a tyranny. I just wanna yell at them like dude.. You keep bringing attention to the physical body that represents my least favorite aspects of existing by mentioning directly in conversation because that's what words like "she", "her", "girl" and "woman" mean to you. You might as well be openly talking about my fucking genetalia because that is your only qualifier for using those words. You are reflecting the things I didn't like about about the experience of myself back at me. If I openly referenced your least favorite physical trait every time casually in conversation how much would you enjoy being around me?
They are egoists who deal only in proclamation of truth.
You stating that it's even possible for you to not enjoy their company under certain conditions is offensive to their narcissistic ideals that they should be loved unconditionally by all without earning it.
You embracing an identity that falls outside their homogenous narrow-minded gender binary is offensive to their narcissistic ideals that the world should cater to them and only them.
They are people who failed to shed their ego as they emerged into adulthood and now it controls them, and they have decided to pin the blame for all of their problems on people like you. You're better off not interacting with narcissists at all. They're walking fountains of delusion and you can never say anything that will make them see you as a human being and a peer of equal value.
Gods I would love to not interact with these narcissists... But I also would like to eat and sleep under a roof and I kind of need to pay the bills so unfortunately dealing with them is the everyday cost of doing business. Is it fair that I labor beneath additional burdens at my work because of dumb political nonsense mischaracterizing everything about people like me and people feel justified in making my life more difficult ? No. But it's a union gig that pays $15 dollars more than other jobs requiring related skills so I sell my mental health peicemeal so I have a shot at affording to keep my family secure.
I really wouldn't care if they were random people booing me on the street because then I could just avoid them but the thing is my not putting up with these people holds tangible losses and narcissists are very good at getting themselves into positions where they are the ones who sign the cheques.
Have you spoken with your union rep about this? What they’re doing is creating a hostile work environment and that’s illegal.
I am in Union film work so basically there's no real solve because all the jobs I am on are only around approximately 8 months before the crew is desolved and rehires happen. I also have taken some of the prerequisite courses for the Steward program and spoken to them directly.
The advice is always the same. Technically I can win my legal right to remain on a single show but they have no obligation to hire me for the next one and its's well known that taking a boss to arbitration unless everyone basically agrees it is beyond a doubt warranted is career suicide... And every crew is enmeshed in a web of gossip and word of mouth. If basically the hall is empty because everything is busy being "a problem" is fine. But when there's no work and it's name requests only I got to be somebody's go to or I starve.
That is actually a really good explanation for that whole scenario
I used to be like that with sexual harassment at work. Then I just got fucking sick of it and started reporting it. It feels scary at first, then really good. Highly recommend it if you feel comfortable
It's not a regular situation for me. My individual jobs are 8 months-ish long and rehiring is a very nepotistic thing as people choose their favorite people. I could absolutely win a case to be treated better... But the chances are high I would be burning bridges when the next gig comes. I value my reputation in the industry at large.
If I were at a static job it would be worth it but here they don't have to fire me, they just don't have to hire me again.
Jeeesus, this makes me want to take a crowbar to these people.
Most people in normal conversation when they misgender, it has nothing to do with genitalia and everything to do with they perceive you on the surface tbh. I've been misgendered as a sex I don't identify as and don't have the genitals of.
You are interpreting my words too narrowly. I am intimatly aware how people read and assume gender... But my point is it is rude as fuck when done deliberately based on sex.
When transphobes misgender so deliberately and refuse to change their behaviour due to their adherence to "the facts" in direct opposition to my personal comfort it is very much in reference to my physical body and prescribing gender as something locked to sex, physical and immutable. If not the secondary sex characteristics then the genitals or the chromasomes or the shape or the skull and hands ... the goal posts move to their tastes if they really want to go for broke.
Besides, not all of us pass as our gender. Non binary identities are almost never assumed and conservative people have meltdowns when asked to use they/them pronouns.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don't feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn't do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn't exactly up to snuff here.
Yea this to me shows this is just a response meant to insult. Yes, it is hurtful for everyone to be percieved differently from how they want to be perceived.
This was not intended to insult but quite frankly I get a lot of cis people trying to use anecdotes from their experience of being misgendered... and a lot of it really demonstrates misunderstanding of what misgendering is like from a trans perspective. I have met cis people who legitimately experience gender euphoria and dysphoria but when they speak with other cis people they realize they aren't experiencing gender the same way. Cis people who experience internalized gender preference are comparatively really rare. From what I have observed lot of what cis people react to when they are misgendered is usually one of three things.
A miscategorization error. Basically it's just not factually correct. This can cause social anxiety as one is placed in a position where they might feel a need to correct it.
A perception of not performing their perscribed social category well. Either because they interpret it as them not being attractive in the right way or because they are not performing up to a standard they were socialized to perform.
Or 3. Misandry /Misogyny - They actually don't like the other sex because of some reason. Then when they are misgendered it's like being mischaracterized as a category they feel inherently superior to and react to the implication of perceived inferiority.
Those are the commonalities of the gender experience cis people and trans people share. A lot of the time what cis people interpret as our problem is that we're just upset at misgendering because this idea we are obsessed with category. When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for. When we trans folk try to explain this this we have no 1 to 1 analogy we can use so we have to use other experiences around a sense of bodily insufficiency that are not quite right but that we know are more more universal.
Which is why folk think gender performativity theory is somehow a trans thing when it's more accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender. So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that's going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
What you're describing is a gender fixation, or a gender performance. You're right that most cis people don't experience euphoria, but that's because they aren't fixated on it. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply unsettling for someone to have their own self perception to be questioned. Which you missed and I think is the biggest thing for people, and is itself the root cause of most insecurity and body dismorphia, because you realize you can't trust how you perceive yourself. Someone who's anorexic can't trust what they see in mirror to know if they're fat, and they might assume that others who say they're not are just being nice.
You're not correct to assume this is all trans people, or all cis people. Some cis people are extremely performative with gender, and some trans people aren't. And, honestly, what you're describing as your experience sounds closer
I think it's more accurate to say most people don't hyperfixate on gender, just as most don't hyperfixate on race. It is true there are more experiences that are gatekept by gender, but the gradual erosion of gender is, in my view, a much more equitable goal than encouraging those few who hyperfixate on arbitrary descriptors.
Don't be patronizing
First point, I did not say all cis people experienced gender one way. I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don't recognize it because cis people aren't generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don't tend to talk to each other about it.
Also trans and cis are not perfect categories in this instance, I am using them here as generalization. We don't actually have a good word yet for this because these observations are kind of in beta. It involves the trans community backwards engineering cisness through asking questions of cis people about their experiences of gender because its becoming more clear through discussion that there is something else going on.
Also I would argue "gender hyperfixation" is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms "like a girl's" is as much a hyperfixation but it's for a different reason. A more accurate way I would put it is internal sex characteristic stratification. We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
The example of body of internalized fatphobia and dysmorphia is a parable some of us use to try and explain the experience of an internalized sense of self that deviates from physicality.... But it's imperfect in it's own way as it focuses too heavily on the impact of routine external validation. Gender dysphoria isn't external. If it was we'd react to people's flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
This might work easier as a more back and forth series of questions. So as not to assume your experience let me pick two phenotypic sex characteristics - breasts and thicker folical facial hair. You probably have one of these two characteristics.
How does having that characteristic make you feel?
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it's patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I agree, in that there are cis people that are basically non-fixated nonbinary, and there are hyperfixated cis people.
I would say its just another way that hyperfixation can express itself.
Strong disagree that "we" do, maybe some people do, and that has infected language. But I don't think most people would say "you're balding? that's so masculine of you" or place much value on their finger length ratios.
I don't really agree with this, obviously I can't speak for the experience of others- but at least for my own experience, with anything- I can only evaluate myself an inherently relative description in relation/comparison to others. If there is only 1 person in the world what does it even mean for them to be masculine or feminine? There is no frame of reference. If there were only 1 human, they aren't tall or short, they just are. That contrasts with something less inherently relative, like eye color. But obviously, the color itself is relative. I don't think someone could have body dysmorphia, or gender dysphoria, if they weren't* inherently comparing their own body or gender expression to others- and for many people they care about how that is evaluated by others- but you're right, it could solely be one comparing themselves to others. Like Alan Watts said "you love yourself in terms of what is other, because it’s only in terms of what is other that you have a self at all. ". Or in the terms of the missile "The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't."
I have no clue. I can't abstract it from those judgements, and those would be the only ways I would judge it anyways.
Edit:
For a lot of trans people their goal in transitioning is to be passing in the eyes of others or in their own eyes(ie in comparison to others).
A lot of the time passing comes with safety benefits and the benefit of people not reflecting our bodies back at us through speech... but I would say that if you have only external validation of your physical body to steer how you feel about it then you are pretty much fitting my rubric of not experiencing an internally reaction to your own body. Your experience of gender is only external. That flexibility might be a feature of the human body naturally having two modes of development you go down. If you swapped body phenotypes and nobody cared or noticed how do you think you might react?
For us a lot of us trans folk part of our journey involves recognizing how our bodies alone outside of any external influence makes us feel. A lot of us spend a lot of time experimenting in isolation. When I am in front of a mirror when I am alone the last thing I am thinking about is how other people feel about my body. I bound my chest in the privacy of my own home long before I went outside with it, but the reason I did it privately was because I got the benefit of the lack of stimulus from it. I wasn't practicing for social use later. If I was isolated for the rest of my life from the interaction with other humans I would still want things like a deep voice, weight distribution changes, facial hair and what not because at it's core those things are for me alone to enjoy.
What happens when someone misgenders me is a reaction that is first and foremost a reminder to myself that I have or don't have that physical feature. The social considerations and implications are secondary and belated. Lack of peer recognition is a component of binary transness that is a deep feeling that your preferred gender is your tribe. Our social astrangement is generally blamed first to how they react to your sex characteristics... But interestingly enough most cis people do not feel this deep sense of social tribalism either.
That's a two-edged sword, there. Perhaps you yourself aren't entitled, but it would be more accurate to say "the entitlement of Republicans and Democrats really is something to behold".
I'm Canadian. It really isn't more accurate to say "Democrats and Republicans" because while people here are very effected by those party policies we do not have a vote. It's like living above a meth lab and hoping your neighbours don't do anything stupid.
I said right wing because it's more universally applicable and transphobia echos across countries. What happens in the UK or US or France or Australian conservative spaces for example tends to empower other conservative and far right narratives elsewhere in a domino effect. If one trans person does something somewhere noisy or some conservative "raises concerns" regarding some weird bullshit in any of those countries there's a chunk of my coworkers who are gunna spend the afternoon having an open discussion about how people like me are a social/logistical/medical/safety problem where I am in earshot.
Fuck the party names. It's all the same.
Fair enough, fuck the party names. ..and yes, the US is the world's shitshow right now.
But, if you want to do something that when compared with 97+ percent of the populous is socially different, medically different, logistically different, and introduces new situations for people to interact with, they will need to have those conversations to determine how to accommodate you.
That does not mean you shouldn't be permitted to be who you are. But those conversations must happen, social changes need to be sorted out, logistical changes need to be implemented, medical structure needs to be adapted, and safety concerns need to be addressed.
..and everybody's going to have an opinion, and that's all going to get so sorted out in time, and the person that just wants things to be simple and not make logistical changes is going to grouse about it, etc. That's all just a part of change - including the real assholes having their say before things change anyways. Because everybody gets a voice.
See the issue with these "everyone has an opinion" thing is it is kinda bullshit. I hear way too often these narratives that young kids are getting bottom surgery for basically being tomboys... And that is from the trans community, easily observable truth standpoint not just a lie - it's a dumbass, holy shit where the fuck are you getting this absolute brainrot use your fucking critical thinking skills for a minute - lie. We aren't having the conversation about comfort or about quality of life or about safety, we are having debates about sources perpetuated by people who are legit profiting off of spreading deliberate and harmful falsehoods because it sells books, speaking engagement tickets, ad revenue and political power.
And these assholes have no clue that when you are talking about shit that directly effects your quality of life your reaction isn't that of casual interest, it's frustrating, stressful and makes doing your job ten times harder because you have to bite through your tongue to not be tempted to rip their heads verbally off their shoulders when they imply you're a pedophile and not safe to be around children.
These conversations often happen in places where we cannot walk away because it's our job to be in that particular room, or truck cab or three foot square. There isn't the recognition that these conversations held on company time are not consequenceless for us. Forced into these stressful situations people literally get sick. Stress destroys you at a cellular level and you can see it in real time. "Debating" about trans issues is consequenceless only for them while we take it home in the form of acne breakouts and gut issues, immune system problems and inflammation.
They can have those conversations on their own dime and honestly, while they are at work they can shut the fuck up because I am not getting paid extra for all the take home extra labour required for them to speak their dehumanizing misiformed peice.
Well, I'm not going to read all that. Now we're getting into areas that are how you live your life. Aside from making sure there's reasonable infrastructure to handle that, i have no real opinion. But not everything's going to be easy, and people will talk about things you wish they didn't - but they still need to sort it out for themselves, in their own way.
..and of course, not understanding you, they'll be off-base sometimes. That's life, and you'll just have to wait for change to propagate.
It's not a good look to post an 8 paragraph long comment reply, and then later declare that you're "not going to read all that" in response to someone else's shorter reply
Fair enough.
Wow. "I'm not going to read all that" huh? Fuck you too. 🖕
Well, everybody's got an opinion, even you.
But sorry I was so dismissive - I was low on time, and on skimming it, it looked like a bunch of stuff that strayed into areas that I can't or don't think will be fruitful. But, I'll give it a more detailed read, and weigh in.
I don't think it's bullshit at all. "Everyone's got an opinion" is both a way of acknowledging that people can and will think whatever they want, and that it's not necessarily something I (or anyone) has to agree with. So I think it fits rather well. I can't prevent the hatred of others, I can only live in accord with my own soul.
Someone cannot use common sense on something that already is outside of their realm of familiarity. Common sense requires familiarity, and people tend to believe what they hope or fear, when conceptualization strays into the unknown. So people will have dumb concepts, sometimes from people who prey on their lack of knowledge of the unknown.
If that unknown then lashes out at them and says something like "that's a dumbass, holy shit where the fuck are you getting this absolute brainrot use your fucking critical thinking skills for a minute - lie", then that's a missed opportunity to have just said something like "yeah, no. That's not a thing. But if you want to learn more about it, talk to me."
Thing is, people get upset pretty easily, and people get mis- or dis-informed pretty easily. Those kinds of people need acceptance of their lack of knowledge, and rational communication of a better way without a lot of emotional charge.
But as to manipulators spreading lies - that will always be. And having our own shit together helps to fight those types, without getting knocked off-balance.
It sucks for people to think that. It's kinda more common now with the general opinion on males, but I think it probably sucks worse when your identity is less clearly defined in the minds of others - or worse, they've got some narrative. But misconceptions, again, are a thing.
The only thing I would do is live my own way, and retain my own balance internally. If I'm screaming at people in my head, regardless of whether they've fucked up, I know I've fucked up. But of course, what I'd do doesn't necessarily work for others.
I would communicate that. Clearly. "Look, I don't sit here and talk about how the GOP are a bunch of Nazis and pedophiles, because that would possibly be a misconception, and clearly divisive. Can you refrain from having this conversation right now, so that I can keep my head cool and actually work on what we're paid to do?" And if they can't take that, then it's job hunting time.
Indeed. I'm familiar. When there's no common ground, and you've got to carve out your own niche, address your own issues, and every interaction is like handling a bag of snakes. It's so easy to cascade and go on tilt. Then, if you go on tilt, they feel the same about you, because your feels are all fucked, and you're yelling in your head at them. It's easy to say "if only they would...", but the reality is that you're the only one that can address your own feelings, unless fate gave you some particularly lucky hand. Even if they're the assholes, the place you can most powerfully have an impact is your own heart and mind. And if you do sort things out, that spreads, naturally.
Culture has a massive, hidden benefit, and being outside of one, on the edge, means you lose that. Keeping your stance, and finding a common ground can be very, very, hard.
Yeah, well. Good luck out there. I hope you find a place you fit well, and a way of thinking about things that works for you.
...
Do you honestly think that's how I interact with these people? I'm sorry, but what are you founding this assumption on? The way I voice my internal thoughts when I am on a message board? I don't need a lesson in diplomacy asshole, I practice it everyday and I don't need someone preaching at me how I should be interacting with these people as if I never attended kindergarten.
You remind me very much of my elementary school principal whose sparkling innovation to combating bullying was to tell students that when they were getting bullied they should put their hand out like they were directing traffic and say "Hey, I respect you, please respect me. "... Not one of us even young as we were were idiots enough to believe that wouldn't make things worse.
This inflated sense of "Freedom of Speech" in people doesn't just come with a caveat of belief that they can say what they want without consequences it also comes with a belief that they are entitled to broadcast wherever they see fit irrespective of circumstance or harm. When you challenge that entitlement in any way they have been trained to veiw you as a threat to fucking democracy and some of them will see fit to retaliate. Which is why all those useless harassment seminars need a gods damned update.
And no I am not going to "get a new job" I am a 12 year veteran in film in one of the most trans accepting places on the planet. This is my career. Want to talk tonedeaf? It's telling someone facing a systemic prosecution to abandon their progress with the assumption it's gunna be better elsewhere.
No, I don't think that's how you interact with those people, and I didn't make the assumption that you did.
But, when people feel strongly about something (to where that's your preferred word choice, and likely your internal feeling on the matter) that comes across, consciously or otherwise, and blocks communication. Ever talk to someone who's all friendly in word, but you know they would be screaming at you if they could?
It shows.
Clearly not. Your diplomacy is the stuff of legends.
Uh-huh. ..your capacity to hold to your own principles appears to be lacking. I don't entirely agree with your principles, anyways, but at least they could be consistently applied. There is a massive difference between bullying and simply discussing something. I have seen bullying occur in sidelong ways. But not everybody who discusses this stuff is doing so. There are real considerations that need to be addressed, and people will address them, in time - partly through conversations wherever people meet up, including sometimes on-the-clock at work. I can say what I'd do in your situation whether it's bullying or otherwise, but you're clearly disinterested in that.
It's not always going to be better elsewhere, that's true. But what you can't work around and won't leave, you need to work with. And although it's a lot to carry, that puts the ball in your court. People aren't born knowing you and being familiar with your situation, your quirks, your experiences, your history. That's you. Not them. The rest comes from communication.
..and if that doesn't work, you go your own ways, or fight, I suppose. That's life, and it's the foundation of all this civilization, and of all things we've discovered that are generally better than simply fighting. But if those better things don't work, it's back to the foundation.
Let me be clear. You come across as smug. Complacent. Self centered. Your privilege places you in a position where your deal is accepted as the norm... But when you preach from that position don't expect anyone who doesn't share your position to thank you for it. Your reaction to the frustration is essentially to say "Well that's tough but that's how it is." Which is in so many words just saying "Fuck you."
"Oh I'm not going to read all that but here's my opinion anyway" is saying "Oh you aren't deserving of my most basic consideration".
Your 'diplomacy' lacks humanity. It's just a thin veneer. Really you are a content bystander who self soothes that really there isn't anything you should be doing because really that would be taking sides. All I said is that the consequences of those people's actions are I find them a nuisance to be around and here you are finding that so offensive that you feel the need to dicker me into saying that what they are doing is fine actually and that it doesn't cause me any adverse mental health effects or physical stress symptoms... So what you want me to lie to make you feel better about doing nothing? No let's face it you want to do worse than nothing. You want to shore up the positions of and act as the white knight for the people who find it perfectly acceptable to make my workplace harder to be in.
You are an asshole who doesn't want to have a discussion in earnest, you just want to have a venue to feel superior. Like some bastion of decorum and logic while lacking any flexibility of thought. You are just a troll and you have had enough of my time.
Let me be clear: your opinion matters little to me, because you're not willing to work together with others that have a different world view. ..just another unidentified zealot.