this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2024
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Clockwise and counter-clockwise makes sense.
But when you say “right” it’s not clear which side of the circle is being referenced. If the top of the circle is moving to the right, the bottom is moving left at the same time. So the saying only makes sense when you specify that you’re talking about the top of the circle.
you have to have never seen a steering wheel to not understand which side of the circle is being referenced. it's always the top. who would even reference anything else and why.
"turn it right"
"which part???"
"the middle of course, you absolute alien"
Because people get confused when there is no space for the wrench at the top, and they put the handle at the bottom and try to move the wrench left or right, not referencing the top of bolt.
Because they aren't using the saying as a clokwise/counter clockwise reminder but as a flat out instruction.
I think we can all understand how it functions but that doesn't make it "correct." It's spinning around a circle. Exactly half of its moving right as the other half moves left. That's why we have the terms clockwise and counter-clockwise. If left and right were actually reasonable for something spinning in a circle this wouldn't exist.
yes it would. we always have redundancy, especially in speech. also we're not robots, technicality doesn't matter, how we communicate does. do you get confused when people say something like "that's all behind us now" meaning the past? do you literally turn around and argue that there's nothing really behind you and they should have said in the past instead?
I don't get confused by any of this. Stop pretending like everyone else is stupid. If you're looking at the hands of a clock, they aren't moving right when they're moving clockwise half of the time. The applies to everything moving around a circle. Left and right are only useful if you're looking at a specific segment of it. Clockwise is what we use for rotations everywhere else. For example, look at this wiki page that says this: "Rotation or rotational motion is the circular movement of an object around a central line, known as an axis of rotation. A plane figure can rotate in either a clockwise or counterclockwise sense around a perpendicular axis intersecting anywhere inside or outside the figure at a center of rotation." Right is literally never even used in that page, and left is only used once. The terms don't make sense for rotations. We can make up rules for how they can be considered for rotations, but they fundamentally are not words used to describe rotations. Do you get confused when people say there are more useful words to describe a function?
Yes, it's always the top side of the circle in this context, or you can think about how clock hands do go in a specific direction, because they're a radius, not a circumference. There, now it's cleared up for you.
The clock hands move right when at the top but left when at the bottom.
In Australia, it's the other way around and the clock will try to eat you or at least sting you to death.
Imagine it as if it were a track you were driving around, which way would you turn the wheel?
It's getting so convoluted at this point just knowing clockwise/anticlockwise is infinitely easier.
Yes! That concept makes way more sense.
If a steering wheel has you this perplexed then I beg you to never ever drive a vehicle.
If you're gripping the bottom of the wheel you move your hands left to make the car turn right. Which is kind of the whole problem here. Rotation around a centre doesn't happen right or left. That's the whole reason why the words "clockwise" and "anticlockwise" exist. Translation = right, left, up, down, forward, back. Rotation = clockwise, anticlockwise.
It doesn't matter where you hold the wheel. When you're turning right, you're always doing the right movement for tightening a screw, no matter the hand position. That's the point.
A clockwise rotation turns a car to the right (in forward gear) and tightens a nut (right hand threaded). But this is not a rotation to the right. It's a clockwise rotation. You can't rotate "to the right". That's the point.
I agree. But you can say turn to the right and people connect the clockwise movement of the wheel with the direction of the car, which makes it possible for people to understand each other's instructions intuitively even if they use right-left terminilogy instead of the precise clockwise-counterclockwise one.
If I ask you to turn the car left and you give me this speech I would eject from the car.
Yes, and I would be devastated to see you go.
At least until the next bend in the road where the sign indicating a left turn ahead is more than you can handle.
Yes. I should imagine I would be quite happy that you were gone by then.
how's your day goin, man?
Yeah, same old. You?
Am I going clockwise or anticlockwise round the track?
So you're explaining rotation, in terms of a smaller imaginary rotation, which engages with imaginary traction wheels, which engage with the work to be turned?
If that works for you, great, but it is complicated.
No im trying to illustrate the parallels between how you turn the wheel, how the car turns in response to that , and how they are all related. You turn left you will make the exact same rotational movement, with both the vehicle, and the steering wheel.
It's as simple as, "What direction do you turn the wheel to make the car go left?" I just stacked on top "and also it makes the car itself do that same exact circular movement" so you don't just dismiss this as some kind of arbitrary convention.
Oh, I see.
Car steering wheels work that way because of the convention. Change the side that the steering column's pinion meets the rack and the wheel would work the opposite way. From the mathematical perspective, there's two ways to continuously map an arc of the steering wheel to an arc of the wheels, and since they aren't in the same plane neither is "wrong".
i know you can make the wheel work the opposite way, jesus christ. the circle motion the path of the car makes when you turn left is the same as when you turn the wheel to the conventional left. imagine, instead you steered "left" by a joystick. the car would still draw the same circular path the same fucking way, because turning left makes an anticlockwise circle, every time, in every situation.
Ah, so the car isn't even important. You're one of the people imagining standing on the screw. As long as you have a convention about which way is "up" on it, that does work.
You have to have a convention about Up to usefully describe a rotational direction at all. I don't see how that's relevant. Left implies an Up.
Yes, it's true, you do. Left doesn't really imply an up so much as it comes as a package with one, though. I'm not OP, but historically I had the same issue. I just didn't automatically jump to "in is down, and I'm on the rim", and instead was thinking about my actual physical left and right at that moment.
You don't really need to visualize yourself on the rim, either. Just turn left in any context and you will trace the path of an anticlockwise circle. It's really more about establishing why there's a link between left and anticlockwise. Picture and remember whatever works best for you, I'm just annoyed by the people stubbornly insisting the link between them doesn't make perfect sense.
One of them is "wrong" and would kill many people
What the fuck are you talking about.
You’re either rotating the fastener to the right or the left.
It doesn’t matter what side you’re talking about, because you’re not moving one side of the fastener, you’re rotating the whole thing one direction or the other.
Clockwise just means something is rotating to the right.
If I ask you to turn around to the right, are you going to ask me what side of you I’m referencing?
Here is clockwise. One arrow is going to the right and one to the left.
I tend to agree but you could argue that from a perspective in the center of the rotation you’re turning to the right. Imagine standing in the center of those arrows.
What happens if you look at it from the other side?
The whole thing is rotating to the right, that’s what clockwise means. Clocks rotate to the right. One arrow is not pointing left, it’s pointing in the direction of rotation, which is to the right.
The bottom arrow is, definitionally, pointing left.
If you follow that arrow around to the next with your hand, which direction is your hand moving?
That is indicating clockwise rotation, or a rotation to the right. We’re talking about circles here
If I start at the beginning of the arrow and follow it, it's moving left.
Wrist is going left.
Is the direction of rotation in the room with us right now?
No, because humans have a pretty clear forward direction. Screws don't. You say turn a screw to the right, do you mean make the top of the screw move right or the bottom move right?
Most people assume the top, but not all, and the language is ambiguous.
The “front” or “forward” direction of a screw is clearly the face of the fastener itself, be it a hex head, Phillips, or Slotted screw. Picking a side of a face as the front doesn’t make any sense. The whole thing needs to rotate one direction or another, and it will either rotate to the right to tighten, or the left to loosen.
If I ask you what the front of a clock is, are you going to tell me it’s the top curve near the ceiling? No it’s the face of the clock, and the hands rotate around it to the right.
Correct.
Right. Nobody is talking about the under side of the fastener. Just looking it the face of the fastener, as one does when driving into something.
Wrong. A rotating circle rotates in all directions, including right and left, up and down, at the same time. If you attach an arrow perpendicular to the circle, pointing in the direction of rotation, then (if rotating clockwise) the arrow will point right at 0°, down at 90°, left at 180°, and up at 270°
You’re talking about the TOP of the rotation. The bottom of the rotation is moving the opposite direction. Just like the right and left sides move in opposite directions.
Think about a wrench hanging off a fastener, handle pointing to six o’clock. To tighten it (clockwise), does the handle move toward your left or right?
From nine o'clock to three oclock it rotates to the right. From three to nine it rotates to the left.
The rule for the top of the rotation is “righty tighty”. For the bottom of rotation the rule is “lefty tighty”.
The “righty tighty” saying doesn’t specify which side of the rotation it’s referencing, which as a kid helping my grandfather in the garage was confusing.
You aee assuming a top orientation moving to the right. Give somebody a wrench handle at the bottom of nut and tell them left to loosen, you will see how most take it literally and move handle to the left side of their body. they think in terms of their left and their right, not the screws right left from a starting location at top, or if from 4 oclock position to the "left of" 4 oclock as if you were facing the 4.