For fucks sake is this the state of western leftist discourse now? Honestly it's not too far from the "I want to support Gaza, but the Moooozlims there are anti-LGBT so yeah...." shit that liberals say.

[–] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Canada is not a socialist state, Canada is not a former colony with a national liberation government, Canada is an imperialist power (oppressed indigenous population notwithstanding) and as such the Revolutionary Defeatist principle holds real firm

There can't be any defense of Canada for the simple reason the "legitimate government" will become quisling the moment any real force is applied by the United States, and what's the alternative framework? Fight to the last Canadian? Or god help us, Fight to the last First National? You want to copy the Ukraine model of "solidarity"?

The criteria of critical support or support in general isn't based on a person's idiosyncratic ideas of what nations they happen to like or dislike, it's based on a nation's relationship with global imperialism and sorry, but Canada is firmly embedded in the heart of imperialism and as a result we move from critical support to defeatism

Now if an indigenous and general socialist resistance movement develops as a result of the imperialist struggle, THEN we can talk about support, critical or otherwise

[–] PaX@hexbear.net 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

What happens when the imperial partner of an imperialist power becomes a target of that imperial power? Canada only gets to do imperialism in the context of the Americans letting them and helping them do it. They don't have the independent military or financial power to do independent imperial adventures

No one is cheering when other non-socialist states have even vestigial sovereignty stripped away (at least they shouldn't be), even if they may be complicit in imperialism themselves by cooperation with imperial powers and regardless of that and the above, this isn't like an inter-imperialist conflict cuz this isn't about the division of the some parts of the world and other countries between the conflicting powers, this is about the country of Canada itself coming under the complete control of the US without any imperial-partner conditions. This is why I think the relationship of Canada to imperialism will have changed if this happens (unlikely anyway)

And cuz it's about this relationship (we both agree on this), even a reactionary force can become a revolutionary one in the context of an anti-imperialist struggle. Yeah, it's a settler-colonial country, but is there any outcome where American control doesn't make shit even worse for indigenous peoples? Every concession won will have to be won again from the Americans (without even considering the possible involvement of American military forces)

Now if an indigenous and general socialist resistance movement develops as a result of the imperialist struggle, THEN we can talk about support, critical or otherwise

This is exactly the problem, that your anti-imperialism is conditional and until any (hypothetical) national resistance struggle meets your criteria, you effectively have the position of any other imperialist chauvinist, just couched in the language of online leftism kkkanada qin-shi-huangdi-fireball but the fireballs are American bombs I guess

Omg, I hate this argument, this is so silly. Cuz tbh, the settler Canadian government doesn't have the juice to resist this shit anyway if it gets real, probably the only good and possible outcome of any effective resistance to this hypothetical unlikely thing is an indigenous and (fuckin hopefully, if the settler-leftists will go for it I guess) general socialist resistance movement

Idk, in summary...... were the Chinese communists wrong for working with Chiang Kai-Shek in the anti-Japanese war? I'm not saying uncritical support or smth but what does anyone gain besides the imperialists from the total subjection of imperialist partners besides some kind of misanthropic glee? It only increases the amount of resources the Great Satan has under its direct control and forfeits the opportunity to work inside and with the resistance forces to gain control over the outcome and political character of those resistance forces

[–] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Canada isn't simply in cooperation WITH imperialism, IT IS an imperialist power, you need to do research on the havoc Canadian mining firms wreck across the world and the support Canada offers to neo-nazis forces globally

The fact an imperialist power can lose an inter-imperialist conflict doesn't negate the fact of what it's government and institutions are, and those relationships don't change even if it loses, it simply switches ownership to a new set of imperialists, again we wouldn't be dealing with a national liberation government struggling against a bully, we'd be dealing with a quisling government getting wacked by its overlord, and you're saying the socialist position should be to intervene and prop up the quislings for the sake of......national pride? A vague sense of sovereignty? A hopeless hope of settlers joining forces with the indigenous? Like NO flat out, NO

This is exactly the problem, that your anti-imperialism is conditional and until any (hypothetical) national resistance struggle meets your criteria

There is no ideological conditionality or criteria on my part, it simply needs to possess the quality of EXISTING, and that's independent of any list of ideals I would prefer, my comment you quoted is simply me not taking the idea of imaginary revolutions seriously

Cuz tbh, the settler Canadian government doesn't have the juice to resist this shit anyway if it gets real

Exactly, so WHY DO YOU WANT US TO SUPPORT IT lMAO!??! What cause it's the "moral" and "neighborly" thing to do? I'm not a Canadian nationalist

Idk, in summary...... were the Chinese communists wrong for working with Chiang Kai-Shek in the anti-Japanese war?

The Sino-Japanese War was not an inter-imperialist conflict, it was a war of annihilation and fascist expansion, is the US gonna genocide the Canucks now?

[–] PaX@hexbear.net 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Canada isn't simply in cooperation WITH imperialism, IT IS an imperialist power, you need to do research on the havoc Canadian mining firms wreck across the world and the support Canada offers to neo-nazis forces globally

It is, my point is that nothing they do happens without the approval of the US and the assistance of its financial and military institutions. It would be one thing if Americans intervened only when their own interests were threatened but they don't, they intervene when any member of their imperialist bloc's interests are threatened (at least when it's not in the US interests to abandon them) because there can be no alternative. Nationalizing Canadian mines is just as threatening to them as nationalizing American ones in this aspect

There is no ideological conditionality or criteria on my part, it simply needs to possess the quality of EXISTING, and that's independent of any list of ideals I would prefer, my comment you quoted is simply me not taking the idea of imaginary revolutions seriously

Tbh the only reason I'm even engaging in this silly argument is cuz its obviously about more than about a hypothetical "Canadian" national liberation struggle (lmao), but, for me, cuz there is a tendency on this website for people to work themselves up into unhealthy, misanthropic rages about abstract ideas of geopolitical struggle to the point where its honestly uncomfortable :( and it deserves criticism. Idk what this is about to you but why did you make this post if this is about something you don't even take seriously?

You're legit reading the worst things possible into what I said. This isn't about morals at all to me (well maybe a little, I donut like imperial machinations on a moral level too) but I feel like we need to be able to distinguish cracks and contradictions between the imperialist powers if we want to take advantage of them and this is a big one lol

This shit is honestly upsetting me and I can't think critically about my position or your position anymore tbh, I'm disengaging respond if you want

[–] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You're legit reading the worst things possible into what I said

lmao I got called an "imperial chauvinist" and a "raging misanthrope" in this thread because I think critical support for an imperialist government that gave a standing ovation to an SS officer isn't a tenable position for socialists to advance, so let's not get precious or in our feelings all right

OBVIOUSLY we extend solidarity to the working class of Canada no matter what the US and the SS loving Canuck state decides to do, but that is not the same thing as cheerleading whatever bullshit response the Canadian gov cooks up in response to Trump's expansionist mood, especially when that response will be, as some comments have already predicted; a partial or full surrender

[–] PaX@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

::: spoiler i got into feelings but also apology

Yeah fuck it I'm getting into feelings cuz this is the only site i ever feel comfortable rarely putting my fucking embarrassing feelings , i can angry debate anywhere else on the internet

I'm sorry, I came into this thread with way too many assumptions

I hate this site for how debatey and hostile it is, it seeps into everything including how I interact with it. I should have engaged in some kind of better way. I'm not even okay with dogpiling libs anymore it just creates a horrible atmosphere and I'm not gonna do it anymore

I hope I didn't upset you when I said those things, I'm sorry

I'm gonna take a site break, maybe forever cuz this has upset me way way too much and i feel like this may keep happening if i stay here cuz its not the first time

i said I was disengaging before but i saw this and had to reply, im going for real now

i will think about what you said it was never my intent to run defense for settler colonialism and that was maybe what i was doing

[–] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Disagreements happen, you had your takes, I had mine, we both should've been more charitable, but misunderstandings happen in the heat of the moment and perhaps I was a little too defensive, I'm sorry too

You didn't upset me and I hope I didn't ruin your day cause that's the last thing I want, you got a big heart comrade and that's no crime, have a good night

[–] GrosMichel@hexbear.net 5 points 2 months ago

Get his ass.