this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2025
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[–] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

"Hey, let's vote for a candidate who literally cannot win from a party that hasn't done the necessary work to become nationally viable because I don't want to be part of the two party problem even though if we do so it will guarantee that a felon rapist who incited an insurrection, stripped women of a human right, and illegally attempted to overturn an election will win." - Dipshit 3rd Party Voters

Just as stupid as Trump supporters, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, they got what we told them they'd be getting. Why aren't they celebrating?

[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (20 children)

But you're SUPPORTING GENOCIDE when you vote for the candidate most likely to get the fewest people killed! While the people of Palestine are about to be annihilated, my own right to marry is about to be taken away, and all of my trans friends are going to lose access to the drugs that keep them from killing themselves, I can rest easy knowing that I didn't engage with the system at all

[–] silasmariner@programming.dev 3 points 1 week ago

Absolutely tremendous brain energy

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[–] dx1@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (11 children)

Point A. Mathematically, the third party voters did not cost you the election. Not in terms of the raw popular vote comparison, not in terms of the electoral college vote comparison.

Point B. No candidate is owed your vote. A "third party" candidate must be judged on the same merits as a "first"/"second" party candidate. The first and second party candidates are both complicit in genocide and/or genocidal incitement. They are literally war criminals. The only argument you can make for the preference of the first/second party candidates is not based on merit, but popularity alone. It's circular logic to justify a population voting for a candidate on the basis of popularity - "we must vote for them because we're voting for them". This only appears to make sense when viewed in terms of an individual choice, but the logic completely breaks down when viewed in terms of group behavior. I cannot stress enough that this is an absolutely basic question in terms of civic engagement in a so-called "representative democracy", and yet a staggering amount of you have not even thought about it.

Start from scratch on the logic. What is the ENTIRE framework we're using to select candidates, as a population? When compared against other frameworks, how do we evaluate which framework is ideal, based on its long-term consequences for a society? If you have not already thoroughly answered this question for yourself, you are not qualified for this discussion in the first place.

[–] chaogomu@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

All of that is fine and dandy except we live in reality.

Reality is a cold hearted bitch. The actual choices were between the status quo, with the occasional bone thrown out way, and billionaire backed fascism, where all of us will be actively fucked for at least the next four years, and likely longer because the fascists are unlikely to ever allow elections where they have a chance of losing.

Those were the only choices, not voting or voting third party was exactly the same as voting for the fascists. Congratulations, you did it, Trump won.

[–] dx1@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

I saw these responses coming and worded my comment correspondingly. Read. More. Carefully.

[–] splonglo@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Absolutely right on point A.

Point B: This is wrong and you've obscured the idea. " we ( potential third party voters ) must vote for them because we ( left voters as a whole ) are voting for them " It's not circular logic, they are two different groups.

So as someone who wants the DNC ( and the GOP ) to disappear, here's what I think are the important questions:

  1. At what point does a third party become viable?
  2. How do you build support for a third party when the spoiler effect is real and everyone knows it?

IMO a good idea would be a threshold system. So anyone can join the party and say, " I will vote if there are X commited voters ". If not, the party stands down. They get to build support without spoiling the vote.

This is all theoretical of course since the US may have just had it's last election.

[–] chaogomu@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I have an answer for 1. and that answer is "Never". a third party is never viable as long as we have First Past the Post voting.

As for 2, you don't put any effort into third parties until after we fix the voting system. You work within the system and push for voting reform, or else it will never happen, and we'll be stuck with First Past the Post forever.

The game plan is to push for one of two options, either Approval or STAR. Those two voting systems are the only Condorcet compliant systems that can fix our mess of an election system. There are some other fixes that come afterward, like ditching Primary elections (they're not needed under Approval or STAR) and ditching the electoral college, but those can come after we fix the core problem.

To reiterate, you cannot solve anything of the problems of our system from outside it. You must hijack one of the two parties and use that to fix things. The same way the Evangelical racists hijacked the Republican Party in the 70s and 80s.

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[–] dx1@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Point B is not "wrong", and you have not showed it is. The population as a whole is responsible for selecting the best candidate. These subdivisions, "right", "left" and "really left" or however you want to depict them, are just cultural constructs (yes, like the election system itself) that affect people's decision making on how to vote. Like any other idea.

How does a third party "become viable"? Define "viability". Any party is "viable" in this system with a few votes on ballot petitions, associated paperwork, and the population voting for them. Again, this points to circular logic. It creates an impossible, circular dilemma if a population is deciding not to vote for a party because they think the population is deciding not to vote for a party. As long as they have that literally insane mentality, the third party is impossibly out of reach, like any other religious or irrational mentality, or any mentality in general, that successfully govern's people's behavior. What else do you want to hear? A "third party" becomes viable when they realize the insanity of that thinking and reject it.

[–] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

How does a third party “become viable”? Define “viability”. Any party is “viable” in this system with a few votes on ballot petitions, associated paperwork, and the population voting for them.

Hmmm. I wonder how a population comes to vote for a 3rd party in significant enough numbers to win a national election. Hmmmm. This is a tough one. How could that possibly happen?

I'm going to spitball here. Maybe a 3rd party would have to start by supporting city/county/state 3rd party candidates across the country so that over time that 3rd party eventually has an actual presence, let's say, in the House of Representatives, which boosts name recognition even more, so that one day maybe there's even some in the Senate and then, holy shit, all of a sudden there's an actual chance at winning a presidential election.

It's comical to state that all the population has to do is vote for them, without grasping that all these other steps don't need to happen first. I'm going to run the Barbie Party candidate in 2028 and when they don't win, I'm going to blame the populace for not voting for them.

[–] dx1@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago

Uh-huh, and yet some of the population ARE aware of these candidates without being spoon-fed their "name recognition". So if social and conventional news media filter out all candidates but those of a preferred uniparty, those should be ignored? Bullshit, wrong.

[–] banshee@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

Start from scratch on the logic. What is the ENTIRE framework we're using to select candidates, as a population? When compared against other frameworks, how do we evaluate which framework is ideal, based on its long-term consequences for a society? If you have not already thoroughly answered this question for yourself, you are not qualified for this discussion in the first place.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Point A is absolutely true.

Point B would be true in a world where the US is a properly functioning and fair democracy. It is not. Elections are popularity contests, and the easiest way to become vastly more known and popular than other candidates is by throwing money at it. Without big donors, your party doesn't stand a chance. At best you have zero impact, at worst you act as a spoiler candidate and get the exact opposite of what you want in power.

In such a system, candidates aren't owed your vote. You owe your neighbors to vote in such a way that potential harm is minimised. A 3rd party vote, if unviable, is never that. In the US electoral system, it doesn't make sense to vote for someone, it makes sense to vote against someone. Which is a deeply sad reality and shows that the US is in dire need of electoral reform.

[–] dx1@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Again. I am excruciatingly well aware of the "realities" of the U.S. electoral system. They are handicaps that are currently preventing the best candidate from being selected. None of them change the fact that the population is responsible for selecting the best candidate. Of course the handicaps exist, that's why we're not selecting the best candidate. That does not somehow release us of the responsibility of selecting the best candidate. That makes literally no sense.

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That does not somehow release us of the responsibility of selecting the best candidate.

You never had that responsibility in the first place, the US electoral system never bestowed that upon you. That privilege goes to party chairs and big donors. You have the responsibility of selecting the least worst option, which is similar but fundamentally different.

The only way to get this responsibility is through extensive electoral reform, but the money in politics has decided against that so you're not getting it. And you have next to no viable way of getting it anyway.

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[–] recreationalcatheter@lemm.ee 1 points 1 week ago

Thanks for helping Trump win! Palestine is so saved. This whole thing wasn't about you feeling morally superior at all.

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 0 points 1 week ago (5 children)

“Hey, let’s vote for a candidate who literally cannot win from a party that hasn’t done the necessary work to become nationally viable because I don’t want to be part of the two party problem even though if we do so it will guarantee that a felon rapist who incited an insurrection, stripped women of a human right, and illegally attempted to overturn an election will win.” - Dipshit 3rd Party Voters

I tell them this every time, but they act like I'M the problem.

[–] Aaron@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Don't tell them they're taking the wrong action, tell them they're taking the right action at the wrong time.

The key to getting more 3rd party support is to start 4 years ago, right after the last major election. The second best time to start is today, right after a major election. The WORST time to start supporting a third party candidate is right before a major election in a swing state with no party presence. Tell them to get to work. They won't get to be another major party, and they won't change the electoral system, but they can scare a major party into adopting one, maybe two of their policy positions. Sorry but that's just the best you can hope for if you're trying to change the system by voting.

[–] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Don’t tell them they’re taking the wrong action, tell them they’re taking the right action at the wrong time.

I do. All the time.

I cannot express to you how many times before the election I typed comments explaining that it makes sense for them to vote 3rd party in local/state elections, but not in presidential elections now or in the foreseeable future. It takes time and a lot of effort.

They don't care. It's like talking to a brick wall. They want what they want and they want it now and if they don't get it then we get to have an anti-democratic felon rapist as president.

They're effectively children and now that we have an anti-democratic felon rapist as our president I'm done being nice to them.

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 1 points 1 week ago

If your actions aren't directly helping to prevent Republicans gaining control, then you're part of the problem

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