this post was submitted on 28 Apr 2025
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[–] Rooskie91@discuss.online 204 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

If you're describing nearly free and unlimited electricity as a problem, you may want to reconsider some things.

[–] MartianSands@sh.itjust.works 136 points 14 hours ago (6 children)

It's a very capitalist way of thinking about the problem, but what "negative prices" actually means in this case is that the grid is over-energised. That's a genuine engineering issue which would take considerable effort to deal with without exploding transformers or setting fire to power stations

[–] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 24 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (4 children)

Home owned windmills, solar panels and battery storage solves that.

Edit: Look at this awesome diagram of how it's done for a hybrid setup that's about $400 on Amazon.

PIKASOLA Wind Turbine Generator 12V 400W with a 30A Hybrid Charge Controller. As Solar and Wind Charge Controller which can Add Max 500W Solar Panel for 12V Battery.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 47 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Home owned windmills are almost a total waste. Its surprising how little electricity they generate especially given how much the cost to buy and install. Some real numbers. A 400w can cost almost $18k to buy and install. A 410w solar solar panel is about $250 + $3k of supporting electronics and parts. And that same $3k can support 10+ more panels. I looked into it myself really wanted it to be worth it for home, but it just isn't. Now utility grade wind? Absolutely worth it. You need absolutely giant windmills with massive towers, but once you have those, you can make a LOT of electricity very cost effectively.

Solar panels worth it? Yes. Absolutely.

Batteries, not quite there yet for most folks. Batteries are really expensive, and don't hold very much electricity $10k-$15k can get you a few hours of light or moderate home use capacity. For folks with really expensive electricity rates or very unreliable power this can be worth it financially, but for most every else. Cheaper chemistry batteries are finally starting to be produced (Sodium Ion), but we're right at the beginning of these and there not really any consumer products for home made from these yet.

[–] kogasa@programming.dev 5 points 12 hours ago

"put the excess energy into batteries" is an idea, and is already pretty much what is done, but the large scale implementation still requires a lot of time, effort, and expense.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 5 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

How, exactly, does that solve anything? It's not like we can add some kind of magic automatic residential cutoff system (that would just make it worse) and residential distribution is already the problem! Residential solar is awesome (tho home batteries are largely elon propaganda...) but they only contribute to the above issue, not solve it. There are ways of addressing it, but they're complicated and unglamorous.

[–] Wanderer@lemm.ee 3 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

I don't see why home batteries are propaganda. Those prices are plummeting and they have decent payback times in some markets.

The reasons for getting solar is the same reasons for getting batteries.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 3 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Because home batteries, while provisionally useful in the same way as a standby generator (though the generator is going to be far more eco friendly than the batteries over their respective lifetimes), is a vastly inferior solution to the implementation of even local grid scale solutions. Also because there is essentially 0 infrastructure designed to handle said batteries, they wear out quite quickly at home scales (unless you're using uncommon chemistries, but if you're using iron-nickle batteries you're not the target audience here) and because Elon popularized them with his "powerwall" bullshit entirely to pump the stock value of Tesla's battery plant (which is it's own spectacular saga I encourage you to look up, it's a real trip).

Batteries in the walls are useful in niches, but the current technology which uses lipo/lion/lifepo4 chemistries is inherently flawed and a route to both dead linemen and massive amounts of E-waste. They could be useful potentially, but as it stands, it's really bad right now.

[–] Wanderer@lemm.ee -1 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

You need to look up how much grid storage lithium batteries are being built. It's exponential growth. Faster than solar.

The reason it's worthwhile is because solar makes energy with 0 or near 0 price to the owner in certain places, if they store that and use it for later they save money. There are cost calculators out there and for certain markets they make sense.

Of course Tesla pushes it they got a product people want and it makes the consumer and Tesla money. Win win. That's business, nothing shady about that.

Yes batteries are better on the grid but that's for exactly the same reasons why solar is better on the grid.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

O...kay but that doesn't address anything I actually said.

[–] bobs_monkey@lemm.ee 0 points 9 hours ago

In no home outside of fringe uses are any lights 12vdc, with the exception of maybe led strip lights for undercabs. They're all designed for 120vac. That lightbulb in the diagram is an e37/medium base for 120vac.

[–] LostXOR@fedia.io 9 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Couldn't solar farms just strategically disconnect some of their panels from the grid to avoid that? Solar panels are always collecting energy, but if you disconnect them that energy just goes into making them a bit warmer rather than overloading the grid.

[–] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 3 points 13 hours ago

You can have your own batteries as well. If those then get overloaded, disconnect.

[–] dohpaz42@lemmy.world 5 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Nothing an open/close gate couldn’t fix. The real problem is how overly complicated we feel we need to make things.

This is some real "basic biology" level thinking here. Even if it were as simple as "Pull the lever Krunk!" then you've just turned all that solar infrastructure into junk for the majority of the time that we need power.

People use the vast majority of electricity in a day in the afternoon and at night - times that are noticeably after the peak solar production time. So you have all that energy going into the system with nowhere to go because battery technology and infrastructure isn't there, and then no energy to fulfill the peak demand. This is an issue nuclear runs into as well because a nuclear plant is either on or off and isn't capable of scaling its power to the current demand.

There are times where power companies have to pay industrial manufacturing facilities to run their most energy consuming machines just to bleed extra energy out of the grid to keep it from overloading and turning into a multi-million dollar disaster that could take years to get people back on the grid.

[–] wizzim@infosec.pub 2 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

Sorry for the naive question, but is it not possible to send the excess electricity to the ground (in the electrical sense)?

[–] SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 9 hours ago

It would definitely need to be ground in a literal sense.

And even the earth has its limits. Soil is only so conductive, pump enough energy into it and you'll turn it to glass (which won't conduct anymore).

[–] Eheran@lemmy.world 4 points 12 hours ago

To effectively waste electric power like that would take quite a bit of effort. It would be easier to make a giant heater that heats up air. But that would of course also be absurd. Just turn off the wind turbines etc. to reduce power generation.

[–] blarth@thelemmy.club 2 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

The grid is always over energized. That’s not a problem. Large solar and wind farms connect to the grid with great specificity about the maximum amount of energy they will put on the lines. The problem would be not enough energy. Batteries are beginning to solve the dispatch energy issue with renewables. As long as republicans don’t get their way and ruin renewable energy with unfair fossil fuel mandates, the grid will continue to modernize in this way and we’ll be fairly independent of fossil fuels in the future for electricity.

[–] someoneelse@lemmy.ml 13 points 13 hours ago

No it's not, it's energized just right. Otherwise you run into either over or under frequencies. Both pretty catastrophic.

[–] skulblaka@sh.itjust.works -1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Not an engineer but I sometimes watch them on YouTube.

Could you not just set up a breakout point and have it arc to ground? If the power source is renewable then wasting a little when you have a full grid shouldn't be a big issue. I'm thinking something along the lines of StyroPyro's arcing plasma flamethrower should chew up plenty of excess power if you scale it up. As you ramp your total storage up toward 100% capacity I'd start shutting off inputs (disconnecting solars, etc) and then have what's basically a big old Tesla coil to vent excess power over 95% capacity.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 6 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

There's obviously a lot of issues with that idea, but I'd like to throw my wholehearted support behind it anyways, just to see the expressions my FCC/Radio buddies would make when they realize someone's running a MW-scale tesla coil as some kind of electrical blowoff valve. I can't easily tell you the exact size of the area you'd utterly obliterate all radio communications in, but it'd be hilariously large.

[–] skulblaka@sh.itjust.works -1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Faraday cage should cover that no? Styro even mentions in the linked video that he needed to encapsulate his workshop in one in order to not get angry visits from the FCC. I'm sure for something scaled up like this you might want to nest a couple of them together.

Again, not an engineer, I could be (and likely am) wildly off base here. Not sure what makes it such a terrible idea though. I am pretty certain that a MW-scale Tesla coil probably wouldn't blow out a larger area of communications than, say, nuclear testing would, and we do that all the time in the Midwest.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Mmmmm no, a bit of napkin math here but the RF this thing would throw off would just melt any faraday cage smaller than a midsized town.

Also no, there are not nuclear tests all the time in the midwest.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 12 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

In fairness, capitalist expansion is predicated on generating and reinvesting profit. If you build an array of solar panels and generate a revenue less than the installation+maintenance cost of the panels, you don't have any more money to buy new panels and expand the grid.

That is, under a privatized system, anyway. If you're a public utility and your goal is to meet a demand quota rather than raise revenue for the next round of expansion, profit isn't your concern. You're looking for the lowest possible installation/maintenance/replacement cost over the lifetime of the system, not the high margins per unit installed.

Incidentally, this is why vertically integrated private firms that consider electricity an expense rather than a profit center have been aggressively rolling out their own privately managed solar/wind arrays. When the concern is minimizing cost rather than maximizing revenue, and you can adjust your rate of consumption to match the peak productive capacity of your grid, then solar/wind is incredibly efficient.

[–] Num10ck@lemmy.world 1 points 11 hours ago

thats why Westinghouse had to crush Nikolai Tesla. you can't meter wireless power.