this post was submitted on 29 Dec 2023
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
That's funny that you think you're on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
What's the ethnic makeup of Israel? What's the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You're granted citizenship automatically if you're Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it's not technically considered an ethnostate, it's about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn't mean it's morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it's very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain "volunteered" Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don't even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling "LALALLALALALA"
There's literally a response just below yours, but of course taking the time to make sure you're actually right is never a strong point for you people.
I personally find it very funny that the pro-Palestinian go-to is that none of the offers Israel made for a 2 state solution were 'realistic' or 'serious' or 'good faith'. No one doubts that there were offers. Tell me, in what other scenario in all of human history do the losers of a war (that they started) get to dictate the terms of their surrender?
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
Palestinians DON'T WANT TO GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO STAY IN THEIR HOME THE PLACE THEIR FAMILIES HAVE LIVED FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS
Great, but they haven’t accepted any peace plan that was negotiated in the last 40 years so they could stay in their homes.
Instead they choose war.
so If I threw you out of your house, then you tried to break back in, would that be you "choosing violence"? or would you be justified?
Israel has no intention of living side by side with Palestinians they have always wanted to continually push them off more and more land until there is none left.
If you don't believe me explain what is happening in the West Bank right now??? Hamas isn't in control there, the gov in the west bank complies with Israel and there has been no terror attacks staged from there AND YET the settlers and the IDF continue to harrass and kill and displace people. Its clear that for the Palestinians they have 2 choices, fight or leave and never see their homes again. Fighting is the more courageous choice.
You wouldn’t throw me out of my house. I have guns and state backing.
So do Palestinians, but when they use them to resist occupation thousands of them die for it. Goddamn I had no idea there were literally people that think might makes right, that if a country outlasts and conquers others that justifies any atrocities
You're arguing with a moron, sorry to tell ya bro.
If driving out hamas is the only way this is going to be solved, why weren't things solved before the existence of hamas? Egypt and saudi arabia have negotiated and a lot of money has exchanged hands to keep them docile. Egypt is high on the list of recipients of US foreign aid, i.e. money to shut up and behave according to US interests. The US clearly favored israel in the camp david meetings and even spied on egypt for the benefit of israel during that time (https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2020/02/12/cia-secretly-bought-global-encryption-provider-built-backdoors-spied-on-100-foreign-governments):
"In the meantime, more than 100 governments around the world, possibly as many as 120, purchased and employed the backdoored equipment. China and the Soviet Union, as it was then, weren't amongst the buyers. However, Egypt was, and this apparently enabled the U.S. to monitor communications between Anwar Sadat and Cairo during the Egypt-Israel peace accord meeting at Camp David in 1978."
Why are you focusing on other countries taking on refugees? These people shouldn't be driven out of their homes to create refugees in the first place.
It’s similar to Ukraine, they don’t want peace unless it means getting all their land back. You can literally apply the same logic and say Ukraine can stop the war if they just agree to peace today.
If Ukraine has been firing rockets into Russia, the Russian invasion would have been justified.
Ukraine has a viable path to military victory, Palestine does not. Israel was attacked and is counter attacking in defense, Russia invaded Ukraine under obvious bullshit pretext as a land grab. Your bias is obvious if you can't see the difference.
Somewhat similar, but the bottom line is Ukraine is a recognized nation with international backing. Russia attacked them to gain territory. If Ukraine can beat this round of Russian aggression they get to remain a state and regain their lost lands. If they can’t beat the Russians back then it is an entirely different scenario. As much as I want to see them succeed there is a chance they could fail.
Finland also lost a huge chunk of territory to Russia back in the 1940s. They recognized they couldn’t beat back the Russians, struck a deal and moved on. They are now arguably better off than if the choose to continue the fight.
Gaza is not a state, the Palestinians had multiple a chances for statehood and a shot at peaceful prosperity. Instead they choose to continue to fight and commit terrorism. The current state of total war between Israel and Hamas are the consequence of their actions.
So if the Nazis won WWII, you'd support them? You've already made it clear you're willing to support far-right genocidal ethnostates.
I wouldn’t support the Nazis, but I’d realize they are going to act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to benefit their society to the best of their ability.
Finland realized it could not win fighting the Soviets and ceded territory for peace. I’d say it worked out well for them.
Palestinians have overplayed their hand for forty years and this latest conflict is just the consequence of their own actions.
Palestine isn't genociding itself, and they were led by secular moderates until Israel backed Hamas to create the pretext for the genocide they're now committing. They've been relegated to an open-air concentration camp as Israel kills orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis. This is just far-right lunatics creating an ethnostate via genocide - like the Nazis.
The Nazis weren't about improving society - they wanted to kill multiple groups and suppress the rest. It's a deeply stupid ideology in addition to being monstrous.
Does your apparent "I think this monstrous bullshit is in my personal self-interest, so it's justified" principle extend to Hamas attacking Israel? What if I'm homeless hungry and horny - do I get to kill you, take your house, rape your wife and eat your kid? If not, why not?
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That's what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don't really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land "more valid"?
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn't this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he's got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
Maybe check your fireplace if it's bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it's just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn't all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn't it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, ... receive all the military help they need from, let's say, China. And they start killing "every non Nation person" because "that was our land". Would you say that's right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.