A pirated car would just be a more free way to access the $10k/yr pay wall you live your life behind. Car-dominant infrastructure is vendor lock in.
Edit: fixed picture
this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
217 points (87.8% liked)
Fuck Cars
9798 readers
6 users here now
This community exists as a sister community/copycat community to the r/fuckcars subreddit.
This community exists for the following reasons:
- to raise awareness around the dangers, inefficiencies and injustice that can come from car dependence.
- to allow a place to discuss and promote more healthy transport methods and ways of living.
You can find the Matrix chat room for this community here.
Rules
-
Be nice to each other. Being aggressive or inflammatory towards other users will get you banned. Name calling or obvious trolling falls under that. Hate cars, hate the system, but not people. While some drivers definitely deserve some hate, most of them didn't choose car-centric life out of free will.
-
No bigotry or hate. Racism, transphobia, misogyny, ableism, homophobia, chauvinism, fat-shaming, body-shaming, stigmatization of people experiencing homeless or substance users, etc. are not tolerated. Don't use slurs. You can laugh at someone's fragile masculinity without associating it with their body. The correlation between car-culture and body weight is not an excuse for fat-shaming.
-
Stay on-topic. Submissions should be on-topic to the externalities of car culture in urban development and communities globally. Posting about alternatives to cars and car culture is fine. Don't post literal car fucking.
-
No traffic violence. Do not post depictions of traffic violence. NSFW or NSFL posts are not allowed. Gawking at crashes is not allowed. Be respectful to people who are a victim of traffic violence or otherwise traumatized by it. News articles about crashes and statistics about traffic violence are allowed. Glorifying traffic violence will get you banned.
-
No reposts. Before sharing, check if your post isn't a repost. Reposts that add something new are fine. Reposts that are sharing content from somewhere else are fine too.
-
No misinformation. Masks and vaccines save lives during a pandemic, climate change is real and anthropogenic - and denial of these and other established facts will get you banned. False or highly speculative titles will get your post deleted.
-
No harassment. Posts that (may) cause harassment, dogpiling or brigading, intentionally or not, will be removed. Please do not post screenshots containing uncensored usernames. Actual harassment, dogpiling or brigading is a bannable offence.
Please report posts and comments that violate our rules.
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It's kinda depressing to see bunch of people who support the subscription model in my post comments for something that you already paid & own
As they pointed out in your original post, it's not, "the subscription model...for something that you already paid & own." This isn't subscription seat warmers, it's paying for an additional service outside the car. You can argue it's too expensive, but without their internet connection and servers, these features wouldn't be possible.
Remote start has been around for well over a decade and did not require internet or a subscription. If you just subscribe and use the feature then clearly the neccesary equipment for remote start is already installed and you paid for that equipment regardless if you use the subscription service.
@FireRetardant @n2burns Remote start can mean different things. I'd hope a subscription based one was via a server and works where normal direct RF fobs wouldn't (like from another country).
If it is just direct RF based remote start that shouldn't be a subscription.
Why would anyone need to start a car from another country?
@Professorozone Yes that would be a bit silly (but could be useful to do for your SO when they have an issue while you are on a trip). But just from the top of a tall housing tower to a car in the basement needs something better than a RF fob
The curfew alert could be more applicable when in another country.
But that would be more like a "keyless driving feature" than remote start, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I suppose a longer distance remote start would be more useful.
So what happens when your car has no cell service? Or you don't own a phone that supports the app? The only use case I can see is long distance remote start but I'm struggling to determine why someone would reasonably need that.
The only reasons they went away from RF is to justify subscriptions and further push the smart device trend where everything can connect to your phone.
RF range is very limited and there is no feedback of success/failure or current state. My neighbour's RF remote start wouldn't work through 2 townhouses. It also doesn't work from high-rises or office building.
How often do you lose cell reception in a parking lot? (Mostly open space with few things to interfere with cell signal).
You are aware that there are rf solutions that provide feedback? Not saying range limitations don't exist, but there are solutions that claim to provide a fair reach.
I am aware. I didn't think it was necessary to explain that it's possible to make an data stream reliable, but doing so requires a lot more power which isn't great for a coin-cell battery.
@n2burns @FireRetardant Basement car parks can be pretty bad for connectivity.
If you're in a basement, you don't need remote start. It's really only for when your car is exposed to the elements.
Basement parking garages are not necessarily heated so remote start could still be useful during cold weather.
Not heated, but slightly insulated. When I was in Manitoba, that meant most parking structures were roughly 15°C-20°C than outside.
RF range deployed by most vehicles, yes. Not all RF is equal in range capability.
See "Frequency bands" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency
I'm very aware of RF bands. I didn't think I needed to explain how RF worked, why the range of a car remote is so limited, and why is impractical to use a lower band. As the frequency gets lower, the data throughout decreases and the size of the antenna should increase.
@FireRetardant Also no one is implying network based should be the only method.
There's no need to host servers for 99% (maybe 100%) of this stuff. All the remote start features can be done through a direct connection between your phone and car. There's no need for a third computer to be involved, except to check if you've paid for it. As long as your car has wifi access (or phone network access, which would need to be paid for) then it can communicate with other devices on the network/internet. Sure, you still have to pay for the internet, but that's paid to the ISP, not the car company.
I'm not sure which direct connection you're thinking of, but for most phones that would be limited to WiFi (probably WiFi Direct), Bluetooth, and maybe NFC. NFC range is tiny and Bluetooth's is pretty small. WiFi's range is approximately the same thing as an RF remote, which isn't great.
Also, if we did have direct connection (which would be great for confirming the start worked, and the status of the car), why would we need internet??
By direct I meant routing to the car and user device, not through company servers. There's no need for that. Both devices are computers. The only reason the company would need it routed through them first is to make sure you've paid up.
Yes, I mentioned that. However, the cell plan would be a lot cheaper. There shouldn't be a lot of data coming through.
It would mean exposing it as much as any other device is exposed. It'd have a port open and listening for communication. Honestly, I'm pretty sure it'd be identical to how it is currently. It's not like sending the communication from the company server is any different than from any other device. Its not connecting directly to the company's servers. It's a wireless service. Sure, it needs security measures, but it already needs that.
Features like this really do require a subscription model. This isn’t enabling remote start by pressing a key on your fob. This is sending a request to a server, which connects to a cell tower to broadcast signal saying “turn on this car”. That stuff ain’t free. Someone has to pay AT&T for the data connection.
What BMW was (is?) doing is abhorrent. You’re buying a car with heated seats, and you have to subscribe to hit the button.
Only because they unethically intentionally designed it that way, when they could've just as easily picked a different design that could've worked entirely locally. They are inventing excuses for rentiership.
They almost always do offer a key fob based remote start option in addition to their app based remote start.
Well, the manufacturer rarely does but the dealership often tries to sell them as an added revenue stream.
They vary from OK to dreadful. But it's still an option vs this remote services system if you don't like it.
Also the added bonus of collecting data to sell too
Then let me have the remote start that has existed for decades as ONE option (without a monthly subscription), and the remote start that requires an entire infrastructure that isn't required for me to look out my window and remote start my car as an option for those who want or need it.
They largely all do. As a factory installed option, or worst case dealer installed but OEM option. Not aftermarket dealer installed, OEM.
https://owners.kia.com/content/dam/kia/us/owners/pdf/2022/2022-Kia-Telluride-Vehicle-Feature-Tips.pdf
see: Smart Key — Remote Start
That's Kia - I thought we were speaking more broadly. We drive a Toyota product and were offered nothing but the app. However, to your point that may have been poor salesmanship.
Sure, you need to pay for the connection, whether wifi for cell. There's no need for specific servers or computation to take place. Yeah, you'll need to pay for another (low data usage) phone line probably, but that should be it.
IMHO, It makes sense though. Piracy and open source are two approaches to attacking the enclosure of public (intellectual) space. Roads for cars are literally an enclosure of public space. The subscription model just extends from this logic.
Edit: These are also things that make sense because the car has to have cell service via a provider.