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Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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politics
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How is Tlaib going to explain to her constituents that supporting Trump - who pushed the Muslim ban and called them shithole countries - by proxy will help them?
Biden may not have the best foreign policy but it really is a fascist wannabe dictator who will absolutely support Bibi regardless or we can choose Biden who isn't a fascist who at least has shown some pushback.
Trump isn't on the Democratic primary ballot.
Is Tlaib suddenly going to be Biden's best friend after the Michigan primary? How can you vote for someone you've been accusing of genocide for months? No, the people she is inflaming simply won't vote. Or, maybe they'll even vote for Trump using the skewed logic that angry, hurt and frustrated people use. Either way, Tlaib is helping Trump whether she means to or not.
As always, the solution centrists want is for the progressives they hate to shut up.
That's exactly what all you guys are endlessly telling people to do. Tlaib isn't why people think Biden is supporting a genocide and her shutting up isn't going to make people not think that, so you better hope either Biden works to make it not a genocide or people are able and willing to vote for someone they see supporting one.
These stupid purity tests need to end. You can't cut ties with someone over single issues with insanely complex situations. Especially when the alternative is not possible on top of wouldn't be different.
Are you saying we should vote for Trump? Because…screw purity tests.
What? A purity test is discounting someone on your side because of a small part of their views.
Sorry. Didn’t realize we were voting for teams and not policies. My bad.
The policies are the same
F. Now my vote doesn’t matter.
Exactly
Yeah, why should a genocide be your “line in the sand?”
Both sides of the line support Israel. Either you’re saying it in bad faith or need to take your head out of the sand. Anti-Israel isn’t on the ballot. If you want a full fledge war in the Middle East, feel free to not vote Biden and give the GOP the conflict they’ve been wanting since the bush admin.
You’re confusing me. If I’m getting a genocide either way, then it doesn’t matter if I vote Biden or Trump.
Yes, you are confused, and you are also trying to confuse the issue with false equivalence. The outcomes of a Trump presidency and a Biden presidency are not going to be the same, either in the Middle East or more broadly.
So we can stop the genocide by voting for Biden? Which vote stops the genocide? Or, do we want the genocide, but not if Trump’s doing it? Or, do we not want the genocide, but it’s okay if Biden’s doing it? Or, is genocide bad regardless of who is President?
You are being obtuse intentionally, I assume, to make a point. Withdrawing support for Israel is not one of the options. Your choices are status quo or fascism. And if you choose not to choose, then you are still making a choice. Trump can be elected by a combination of active support and negligence on the part of those who could stop him.
write this down …
For some of us who have empathy, a genocide is more important than an election. Some nebulous, abstract, distant fever dream future, where Trump is president is immaterial to the actual current conditions in Palestine.
Hope that’s acute enough for you.
As I said, your preference is not one of the choices in the election.
Which is why some will vote 3rd party or abstain.
Which is actually a choice to help Trump win. Its a zero sum game where the winner takes all. Every vote NOT cast for Biden is potentially the vote that allows Trump to win, especially in swing districts. You can't stand above the fray or absolve yourself of blame by simply refusing to play the game.
So you stand with genocide?
OMG, you are hopeless.
To be clear, I don’t have a problem with that. It’s a difficult decision. I may vote for Biden depending on the next 8 months. But the constant bullying and brow beating from democrats of citizens who choose to vote their conscience is undemocratic and borderline authoritarian.
No, I meant you are hopelessly bad at logic. Your line: "Oh, so you stand with genocide" is right up there with the anti-abortionist's favorite line: "Oh, so you believe in killing babies". That kind of logic is characteristic of teenagers and religious fanatics.
I get it. You are looking for a "third way" to avoid an unpalatable choice. Unfortunately, being a responsible adult and a leader sometimes means having to choose from among less-than-ideal choices because not choosing is also a choice.
Fact: There is a genocide in Gaza.
Fact: Biden is funding that genocide.
Fact: A vote for Biden is a vote to continue the genocide.
Id est, you stand with genocide.
Fact: Politicians have positions on many different issues and you won't agree with all of them. Supporting a politician overall in a race doesn't mean you support every one of their positions.
Fact: Trump would be much worse for world (and Middle East) peace than Biden. The US sliding into fascism is just about the worst thing that could happen for democracy and human rights worldwide.
Fact: The US has a first-past-the-post two-party electoral system, which means that you can't avoid the choice between Trump and Biden, no matter how unpalatable that may be for you.
Fact: Choosing Biden over Trump doesn't mean you support genocide, because choosing Trump would lead to even more genocide. The choice is between less genocide or more genocide, not no-genocide. No matter which US President gets elected, there will still be genocide in China and elsewhere. But electing Trump gives a giant green light to even more genocide.
What is so difficult to understand about that?
Good luck negotiating a compromise with the evil that is genocide.
>Anti-Israel isn’t on the ballot.
pretty sure the anti war green party will have a candidate on your ballot
Not that has any chance of winning.
moving the goalposts indicates to me that you're not really engaging in good faith.
Show me a federal election that a green candidate has won. The goalposts haven’t been moved, they never were in a place where green could win in the first place.
you said it wasn't on the ballot. now you seem to understand it is on the ballot and are looking for an excuse not to vote against war.
There won’t be a question on the ballot asking if I’m for or against the war. So you clearly understand I wasn’t speaking literally and just chose to be pedantic. The Green Party will not win the Presidential election. Voting for them will get you close to the opposite of what you want. Literally.
>Voting for them will get you close to the opposite of what you want.
it will increase the number of votes for the candidate i want to win, so it will definitely get me closer to what i want. unlike voting for someone who i don't want to win.
That’s like saying moving your pawns closer to your opponent’s king is the right move because it gets closer to your goal. No strategy, No victory.
>There won’t be a question on the ballot asking if I’m for or against the war
someone is being pedantic, but it's not me.
Oh you’re a child, sorry.
How is voting and organizing against genocide support for Trump?
What should her constituents do to oppose a man who is arming the folks massacring their families?
Huh?