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submitted 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by machiabelly@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net

Please read jeb

I enjoy both but its really cemented why I love dragon age so much more.

These are story based games set in worlds created entirely for these games. Its common to have discussion about how different story events could have gone differently, or what will happen in universe after the events of the most recent installment. Obviously, how these worlds are set up and how the story is told effects the discussions a lot.

In mass effect society spreads across the galaxy and encompasses trillions of individuals across thousands of planets. Despite that, the major story beats hinge on how you treated individual characters, or whether they are alive or not. Like whether an artificial plague causing 99% of krogan pregnancies to miscarry is justified is completely down to whether the good leader is in charge.

Despite trillions of individuals and complex economics all major conflict boils down to species versus species. All krogan, all asari, all turians are just like that so of course this has happened. There are hints in game that there are many different cultures within each species but we get very little evidence of that, and almost entirely in the 3rd game. Krogan (giant toad people with natural armor, anger issues, and a love of violence) are shown to be maybe not inherently violent individuals that care a bit about others, but thats mostly it. We get one pretty butch Asari (otherwise all feminine species).

So when the community talks about these things its always on individualist or species based terms. It is almost impossible to do materialist analysis because of how the games are made. When the community talks about the game arguments are more heated and personal. There are lots more gotcha type lines than in the dragon age community. I suspect this hostile dynamic could contribute to why there are obviously way more women and queer people in the dragon age community.

Mass effect's story is also about exceptional individuals overcoming impossible odds, which lands way better with men, in general, than women, in general.

In the dragon age community discussions revolve around things like, how does the church use drugs to control their private army? How will giving the dwarves a tool that enables them to put their souls into tanks effect their society? How do independent kingdoms respond to a paramilitary organization run by a prophet encroaching on their land?

Mass effect discussions are, "do the volus deserve a council seat?" Instead of, "How could the Volus get a council seat?" or, "How will the volus having a council seat change existing power dynamics?"

Dragon age stories are, "how does magical talent being both random and dangerous effect society?" "Is it worth it to consort with demons to gain power?" Mass effect stories are, "oo ouch owie my magic gives me migraines." (I like Kaiden don't @ me, the whole child soldier bit both games have is nice)

There are other differences too, like dragon age having braver character writing that scares away some of the chuds. Most people on the dragon age subreddit don't like Vivienne, but understand how her inclusion makes the game better. That kind of subelty doesn't exist in mass effect discussions because the game literally wasn't designed for that level of depth. All characters that are apart of your "squad" are meant to be likeable or at least the kind of person their players would respect. Dragon age release characters also in your "squad" like Sera and Vivienne knowing that tons of their players will hate them.

In summary, mass effect is lacking a pair, let alone a quad. (krogan have 4 testicles) (Please laugh I mentioned testicles) jeb

This is underselling ME3 a bit, it was relatively anti-gamer for its time. ME1 and 2 get the gamer-gulag tho. Even though I like them anyway.

Edit: how could I forget Dragon age has literally actually good trans representation. Theres a FtM guy whos literally just the coolest fighty bro and his dudes respect him.

"So If I grew up under the Qun they'd treat me like a real man?" "You ARE a real man Krem." transshork-happy

Edit 2: adding data from reddit surveys

The dragon age subreddit is 45.2% women (3.2% trans), 44% men (1.9% trans), 9.1% non binary and 1.7% other. 45.3% Heterosexual

The Mass effect subreddit is 76.4% men (0.6% trans), 19.7% women (1.5% trans), and 6% total trans people. 73.9% hetero

Dragon age reddit 2023 demographics survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vi-9XTyIx2kvu4hXb309b0NvdWL7Ub_Yj73le6WXzpI/viewanalytics

Mass effect reddit 2019 demographics survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdNHQxT7COKRuYIaoHBXt0s3DOdq2RgPCLlJg2RCN5pf3kcKA/viewanalytics

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[-] MrStalin@hexbear.net 30 points 3 weeks ago

You're telling me that the game series where you become a member of the spectres which is basically the Space CIA who have the ability to act with total impunity under the law and is portrayed purely positively might have some problematic elements?

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 26 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

They show the historical records of the creation of the spectres in ME3:

It says here you killed dozens of civilians during the mission

Their lives were not relevant to my mission

We are going to give you your own agency and let you train a lead others

noooooooooo naaawwwwttt problematic at all. I love being a space cop. I'm such a nice space cop! The galaxy could use more shepards <3

[-] MrStalin@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago

Really, though, I wouldn't have a problem with the existence of spectres if there were more people in the games going "hey don't you think that this whole organization that can do whatever it wants without accountability is kinda messed up?" Like they don't explore the concept at all really it's just an excuse to give Shepard, and by extension, the player, more agency.

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 7 points 3 weeks ago

Mass Effect is just a franchise of interesting concepts that is never explored. You literally die and is brought back and it's just handwaved away

[-] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 24 points 3 weeks ago

In ME's defence, the overarching Reaper and Council storyline will always be about spineless libs refusing to do anything about an impending civilization-wide disaster despite all the evidence because they don't want to rock the boat. Doesn't matter which lib you put on the Council, libs gonna lib.

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 22 points 3 weeks ago

Salarian councilor - We have found no evidence that sovereign was not a geth ship

Shepard - what-the-hell

[-] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 18 points 3 weeks ago

Council: "The Geth built Sovereign."

Shepard: "If the Geth can manufacturer something so advanced, shouldn't we mobilize the Citadel Fleets and stop them before they build more?"

Council: "... Nah."

[-] spacecadet@hexbear.net 24 points 3 weeks ago

Good points. Mass Effect felt dated pretty quickly imo, it's a great reflection of it's time/society in that way, though. Very chauvinistic and individualistic.

I've always felt that stories with more limited scope are far better than grand scale stories, and I think the difficulty of writing materialism in an engaging way is likely related. The grand scale stories feel hollow when the story format demands to be told through a handful of characters (low key why I felt the ending of the Dune Part 2 movie was sorta hollow)

I've never engaged in fan discussions, but I enjoy how you've utilized them to back the assertion that Dragon Age is overall better based on the greater depth and nuance of its debates.

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 19 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yes, one of the creators said that the biggest inspiration for shepard was Jack Bauer from 24, and Dirty Dozen for the story. It reeks of post 9/11 USian chauvinism. The way they approach race (species) is so fucking jarring. And Garrus being the "cop who doesn't play by the rules" just doesn't fly in a post George Floyd world.

Dune part 2 is my favorite movie of all time so we can fight later if you want.

Thank you! I thought that this was a neat way to look at it too. The way people interact reflects the ways they think, their values, and the subjects they are talking about.

cat-trans

[-] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 23 points 3 weeks ago

I fell off bioware pretty hard after Mass Effect 2. Your post makes me feel like I should try to pick Dragon Age Inquisition up

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 17 points 3 weeks ago

I'd love it if you played any of the dragon age games! I'm a huge fangirl for the series. I gave a pretty thorough explanation what to expect in this comment thread

https://hexbear.net/comment/3431009

[-] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 3 points 3 weeks ago

Super helpful writeup, especially all those tips for enjoying Inquisition. I loved DA:O back in the day (my friends used to snag bits from the lore and setting for our tabletop games too lol)

[-] Robert_Kennedy_Jr@hexbear.net 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

If it looks like something you'd be into DA: Origins is excellent and generally considered the best of the series. It's a real shame that they went in a different direction for the sequels but I've played through Origins several times, and if you want to crush your enemies and see them driven before you, dual wield warrior with heavy armor for the PC class is the goat.

[-] Barabas@hexbear.net 10 points 3 weeks ago

Inquisition is alright, but it definetly has issues. The writing for the story missions is pretty good, but there is so much empty area and bland side content that you should probably ignore if you value your time.

[-] Commiejones@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

I really hated DAI in the few hours I gave it. The control scheme might have been ok if I hadn't just finished DAO and DA2 but its just such a jarring change. Its like its half way between a 3rd person and an isometric and is bad at both.

straw-hat-pirates it so you aren't out the cash if you hate it.

[-] LaGG_3@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

I would, but I also got it as an EGS freebie lol

[-] Barabas@hexbear.net 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I think the main difference is how they were written. In ME everything is written with Shepard becoming the big goddamn hero as the core, everything else kind of came afterwards. In DA the writers were a lot more interested in the setting or Thedas (The Dragon Age Setting, in case you were wondering where they got the name from). They also wanted to deal with subjects like racism and bigotry, which is something that ME is either uninterested in or slightly supportive of. Also that DA was very influenced by the "grey" morality that was incredibly popular in Fantasy writing at the time, this was the heyday of ASOIAF.

I don't think the spectres themselves is what put me off ME though, it is the uncritical portrayal of a very American-style military organisation overruling the ~~UN~~ council about the ~~weapons of mass destruction~~ Reapers who the ~~UN~~ council were doubting them about.

[-] TechnoUnionTypeBeat@hexbear.net 17 points 3 weeks ago

As lib and somewhat incurious as Mass Effect 1 was, I really loved the setting and was super disappointed that 2 and 3 ended up as generic 7th gen third person shooters with a bit more story than the usual ones

Like there were little pockets of cool ideas and fun world building sprinkled in, and I would have loved to see them expand on it in a more story based way than just shooting everything and everyone. Things like Turians and Quarians having a wildly different physiology from most other species, making even things like food incompatible. And I'm a sucker for a good space opera

But then we got whatever the fuck ME3 was

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 5 points 3 weeks ago

Also what happened in the writers room between 1 and 2 were the evil human organisation suddenly stopped being unambiguously evil?

[-] LeZero@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago

If I were to guess, Obama got elected so now the CIA must be the good guys

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[-] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 15 points 3 weeks ago

I haven't played Dragon Age but this summarizes why Mass Effect is pretty shit and looks worse with every passing year. I didn't play 3 but the first two were cool for a bit and then the monotony set in and I couldn't wait for them to be over. I think I only finished them due to them being the in cultural zeitgeist of the time. I have never had the desire to play them again.

[-] BelieveRevolt@hexbear.net 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I think Mass Effect, especially the original, is a reflection of Bush era amerikkka. Don't know how much people have thought about this before, but to me it seems pretty obvious.

I started playing the Legendary Edition, but the whole "We need a hard man/woman to make hard decisions without the stupid chiefs in the Council messing it up! Stupid reporters trying to question me, I should just punch them!" vibe was too much.

[-] T34_69@hexbear.net 5 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah same, they made all the main characters into tacticool operator types and it's so dreary in that GWoT way

[-] barrbaric@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

All characters that are apart of your "squad" are meant to be likeable or at least the kind of person their players would respect. Dragon age release characters also in your "squad" like Sera and Vivienne knowing that tons of their players will hate them.

Counterpoint: literally everybody hates James. Seriously though, I think this is just due to Inquisition being a more recent game than ME3; IIRC chuds also hate a lot of the Andromeda characters for being POC or LGBT. I'll definitely concede that IIRC there are no trans characters in ME which is kind of odd. As for the gender distribution between the two franchises, toxicity is definitely a major factor, but I wonder how much also has to do how the franchises were structured. ME was a complete series that started in '07, which was prime Gamer^tm^ time, and jumping in at 2 or 3 wouldn't make much sense. DA started in '09, but the next two games were totally unrelated meaning people could jump in wherever, and over time it has become more socially acceptable for women to play "real games". In both franchises you more or less play unaccountable secret agents working with a ragtag team of weirdos to commit mass murder, so it's not like the tone is that different. Maybe also something about genre, with fewer women wanting to play a TPS?

I disagree that DA is more about societal problems rather than individual ones. Maybe it's just because I played Origins the most (2 was okay, Inquisition was garbage), but I remember having to choose between "good and evil leader" in the dwarf quests or "evil elves and good werewolves" in the elf quests, for instance. Both games have the same core problem: they're made by liberals and so usually have one obviously better solution (though occasionally there will be a secret third option, typically based on compromise, that was actually the best choice all along!). I think the biggest difference is the paragon/renegade system: there was never a time where just doing the paragon thing wasn't the best option, and that drastically limits how they can write stories. Whereas the dwarf quest has "the nice traditionalist and the asshole reformer", and you can make arguments for both sides, Mass Effect has "cure the genophage or don't because lol lmao".

Anyway, the most important thing here is clearly ranking the different games were: ME1>DA:O>>ME2>DA2>>>DA:I>>>>>>>>>>>>>ME3

This is official and definitely has nothing to do with nostalgia.

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Counterpoint: literally everybody hates James

counterpoint: they don't get props for making a black man with an absent father cheat on you. And they clearly tried to make him a likeable character but then just made his romance shitty. He's just boring. Oh! James not jacob. He's boring too and he wouldn't stop flirting with my shepard. He's meant to be shepard's bro guy, they still tried, even if they failed.

unaccountable secret agents

Shepard is "the best humanity has to offer." The Warden is the new guy who lived because they were given the boring job. Hawke is a poor refugee who gets caught in some big trouble. The inquisitor got their power completely on accident. Both are individual stories as a consequence of the agency bioware games give their players over the plot. But everyone is literally slobbering on shepards toes the whole trilogy, especially 2 and 3. You get more of that than I'd like in DA, but its way less than ME. Shepard also has big cop energy that DA doesn't.

societal problems rather than individual ones

My point wasn't that there aren't good guys or bad guys. Or that the choices were complex and difficult. Just that what defines your decisions in dragon age games are the systems that individuals are a part of, not the individuals. Curing the genophage good if wrex and eve alive, bad if wreav and no eve. No societal pressures, no politics, economics, just chad wrex putting his species on his back. Though tbf they make it clear eve will end up being more in charge than wrex. They actually cut a pretty matriarchal line with the krogan that I liked.

If you restore the anvil of the void in DA its bad no matter what. Because the power incentivizes unethical behavior.

Yes, the brecilian forest is the weakest part of DAO.

Also, there aren't any compromise koombaya decisions in Dragon Age. At least not that are clearly the best decision. The closest you get is getting briala and celene to marry and rule together in DAI, and getting alistair to marry anora. I chose neither in my cannon playthrough. There are a lot of, "solve the underlying issue if you did things in the right order," though.

I think if you're looking for a big picture non-writing team reason for the difference its that DA games have different protagonists. Everything relates back to your decisions over the trilogy which forces it to be very individualist.

For me its inquisition (with DLC) > DAO > DA2 > ME1 = ME2 > inquisition (base game) = ME3.

[-] Robert_Kennedy_Jr@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago

Might give Inquisition a go, I was so put off with how much they changed from DA:O I never bothered with the sequels.

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

This is not my first time proselytizing. Check out these comments from a year ago to get the most out of the game.

https://hexbear.net/comment/3431009

cat-trans

[-] barrbaric@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

For me its inquisition (with DLC) > DAO > DA2 > ME1 = ME2 > inquisition (base game) = ME3.

Lol I played DAI at launch so I guess our opinions match. Surprised the DLC could make that much of a difference, honestly.

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

The Descent is the best dungeon in inquisition. Jaws of Hakkon is the best open world in inquisition. And Trespasser is my favorite RPG experience of all time.

[-] Barabas@hexbear.net 9 points 3 weeks ago

I think the main difference between DA and ME is based on the people that made it. I was in the forums an embarrassing amount from a couple of years before it released until somewhere after DA2.

The writers were actually able to write “romances” that would appeal to women, mostly due to the team being a gay lead writer, 4 women and a straight guy. This also carries out in the fandom, the most noisy people after release until I stopped going were by far horny army wives. There was always a much more even gender distribution in the DA forums than ME, so I don’t think it is Zeitgeist.

[-] bunnygirl@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'll definitely concede that IIRC there are no trans characters in ME which is kind of odd.

1
Hainly Abrams in Prodromos, Eos in ME:A, she's pretty poorly written, not necessarily in a transphobic way, the convo is just strange and clearly written by a cis person (and then dev crunch being too big to give it a second thought). They reordered her dialogue around so it's less strange now, but it's also made it more difficult to find out she's trans (which, tbf, isn't necessarily unrealistic)

ME1>DA:O>>ME2>DA2>>>DA:I>>>>>>>>>>>>>ME3

i'm afraid we must split the left

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

What order would you put them in? curious-marx

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[-] Egon@hexbear.net 9 points 3 weeks ago

Dragon age origins was such a good game too. The different starts, the factions. I even liked the deep roads, they were kinda cool. I missed the origins fighting system even though it was clunky. Sten was fucking rad too.
Its been so long that I can't remember if Morgan was actually nuanced or she was just a failed attempt at nuance. The chantry mission rocked.

[-] bunnygirl@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

Theres a FtM guy whos literally just the coolest fighty bro and his dudes respect him.

CHAIR BOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!
(we need a Krem standing on chair emoji)

like Sera and Vivienne knowing that tons of their players will hate them.

I will fight anybody who hates Sera 😠
only thing wrong with her is she's in the wrong game, like imagine the fucking chaos of having her hang out in Kirkwall lmfao

Also on a more serious note, I do think the thing about the subreddits at least is a somewhat more recent development, at least in my experience. Like r/dragonage is quite chill now, but I have multiple times in the past left the subreddit due to toxicity (r/masseffect has always been a cesspit tho)

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I romanced Sera because she was quirky. Didn't know people didn't like her

[-] bunnygirl@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago

yeahhh

tbf the reasons ppl dislike her do vary and some are more valid than others, but also like
she's a female lesbian ND anarchist so there's definitely a ton of gamer-gulags that will hate her regardless because of that

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 3 points 3 weeks ago

I will fight anybody who hates Sera

Shes a lesbian with a lesbian haircut who talks shit to your face. She also doesn't try to sound smart or reasonable or cool. freeze-gamers hate her.

[-] BlueMagaChud@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago

Having played all the ME games, DA:O, and only the demo for DA2, I no longer acknowledge that there are any sequels to ME and DA:O, my headcanon is they're standalone games. That said, I like them both pretty much equally and only wish there could be sequels from a universe where joss whedon and capitalism is dead

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 5 points 3 weeks ago

Inquisition is actually pretty good

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

The dragon age community is quite split on what their favorite game is. According to subreddit surveys its: 43% DAO, 33% DAI, and 24% DA2. IMO Dragon age inquisition is the worst game in the series without DLC and the best game in the series with it. I talk at length about how to enjoy inquisition and what the strengths and weaknesses are of each game here:

https://hexbear.net/comment/3431009

[-] HumanBehaviorByBjork@hexbear.net 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Mass effect's story is also about exceptional individuals overcoming impossible odds, which lands way better with men, in general, than women, in general.

I think this claim could use some supporting evidence. I'll take your word that the female nation likes one game more than the other, but my understanding was that both games were pretty popular with women (and nearly every subreddit skews male anyway).

[-] machiabelly@hexbear.net 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The dragon age subreddit is 45.2% women (3.2% trans), 44% men (1.9% trans), 9.1% non binary and 1.7% other. 45.3% Heterosexual

The Mass effect subreddit is 76.4% men (0.6% trans), 19.7% women (1.5% trans), and 6% total trans people. 73.9% hetero

Dragon age reddit 2023 demographics survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vi-9XTyIx2kvu4hXb309b0NvdWL7Ub_Yj73le6WXzpI/viewanalytics

Mass effect reddit 2019 demographics survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdNHQxT7COKRuYIaoHBXt0s3DOdq2RgPCLlJg2RCN5pf3kcKA/viewanalytics

This infographic from ME legendary endition corroborates this

https://www.psu.com/news/mass-effect-legendary-edition-stats-reveal-players-key-choices-popular-squadmates-and-shepard-gender-preference/

Dragon age has double the women, double the gays, and double the trans people

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this post was submitted on 08 Jun 2024
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