this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2024
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And it failed spectacularly.

We only needed a simple form, but we wanted to be fancy, so we used "nextcloud forms".

The docker image automatically updated the install to nextcloud 30, but the forms app requires nextcloud 29 or lower. No warning whatsoever. It's an official app, couldn't they wait that it was ready for NC 30 before launching it? The newsletter boasts "NC hub 9 is the best thing after sliced bread" yet i don't see any difference both in visual or performance compared to NC hub 2

Conclusion: we made our business to rely on nextcloud forms as a signup form, but the only reason we were using it was disabled who knows how many weeks ago.

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[–] irotsoma@lemmy.world 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Docker automatically upgrades if you tell it to by specifying "latest" or not specifying a version number. But it only upgrades if you issue the pull command or the compose up command. There are ways to start without a pull like using start or restart. So yes, there was warning and something you did actively told it to upgrade.

And it's really bad practice to update any software without testing, especially between breaking/major version numbers.

Finally, it's not uncommon for a platform to release its update and then the plugins or addons to follow. Especially with major updates that require lots of testing before release. This allows plugin/add-on makers to fully test their software with the release version of the platform rather than all of the plugin makers having to wait for one that may be lagging behind.

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[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 14 points 2 days ago (11 children)

Why did you do automatic updates without testing? That is the real issue.

Honestly your IT department sounds like it could use some help

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[–] JASN_DE@lemmy.world 79 points 4 days ago (9 children)

Wait, you update productions systems without running a staging environment? Or even checking the update notes and your installed apps? Also no backups? What kind of business are you running over there?

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 54 points 4 days ago (6 children)

Oh, Nextcloud docker is a joke. They follow no standards or best practices when it comes to docker. They keep the entire app directory mounted as a volume, which means it does upgrade you without you "needing" to upgrade the docker image. They have volumes within volumes they need to mount. Their configs can (and do) override environment variables. Most actions that need to be taken require running an occ command which can only be done by exec'ing into the container.

Nextcloud docker is honestly just such a joke. They should have rethought their application from a docker sense and they didn't. God just number one - Docker images should never update. It's a freaking pinned version for a reason. If I want to update, it should be as simple as upping the version tag, and it does any upgrades in place when I do that.

I honestly steer people away from Nextcloud now because of how mismanaged their images are.

[–] Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (6 children)

Yep, and I'd guess there's probably a huge component of "it must be as easy as possible" because the primary target is selfhosters that don't really even want to learn how to set up Docker containers properly.

The AIO Docker image is an abomination. The other ones are slightly more sane but they still fundamentally mix code and data in the same folder so it's not trivial to just replace the app.

In Docker, the auto updater should be completely neutered, it's the wrong way to update the app.

The packages in the Arch repo are legit saner than the Docker version.

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[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The images work fine for me. The problem is that Nextcloud is a complex app that doesn't really work with the design of one container to do one job. It is pretty much a regular application that uses docker for packaging.

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That doesn't make up for bad container decisions. I run much more complex containers both that split out responsibilities and that contain everything as one container. The size and complexity is irrelevant to the bad design decisions. You can have an image that eats up gigabytes of space that runs off of proper environment/config variables with properly mounted volumes.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Again there docker image is just a packaging format and a health check. I very much wish it were better but for now it works

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[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 days ago

One that lacks a good IT department apparently

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[–] hperrin@lemmy.world 32 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Backups and rollbacks should be your next endeavor.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 8 points 2 days ago

Seems easier to blame Nextcloud

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[–] matzler@lemmy.ml 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Specify a Version Tag in docker compose and update nextcloud deliberately through the webapp, that way it doesn't update automatically on a pull

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You can't update it in the web app. You need to do a docker-compose pull followed by docker-compose up -d

[–] moonpiedumplings@programming.dev 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No, I think if you're using the nextcloud all in one image, then the management image connects to the docker socket and deploys nextcloud using that. The you could be able to update nextcloud via the web ui.

https://github.com/nextcloud/all-in-one?tab=readme-ov-file#how-to-update-the-containers

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 23 hours ago

I'm talking about docker compose

[–] ShortN0te@lemmy.ml 31 points 3 days ago (8 children)

The docker image automatically updated the install to nextcloud 30, but the forms app requires nextcloud 29 or lower.

Lol. Do not blame others for your incompetence. If you have automatically updates enabled then that is your fault when it breaks things. Just pin the major version with a tag like nextcloud:29 or something. Upgrading major versions automatically in production is a terrible decision.

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 17 points 3 days ago (5 children)

Docker images should never self update - that's an anti pattern. They should be static code. The only time I would expect a docker image to "auto update" is if I was using the "latest" or "stable" tag and Compose/Kubernetes/I repull the image - but the image should never update itself.

Yes, OP bit off more than they could chew. Nextcloud, however, is breaking the entire purpose of Docker images by having an auto-updater at all.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 17 points 3 days ago (5 children)

If you say

Thing:latest

and then redeploy your compose file or what not,

well, you're getting the latest!

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[–] admin@lemmy.nowhere.moe 1 points 2 days ago

take a VM snapshot, upgrade the app, validate it still works as intended, if not, revert from snapshot

[–] Zak@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

There was a recent related discussion on Hacker News and the top comment discusses why this sort of solution is not likely to be the best fit for smaller organizations. In short, doing it well requires time and effort from someone technically sophisticated, who must do more than the bare minimum for good results, as you just learned.

Even then, it's likely to be less reliable than solutions hosted by big corporations and when there's a problem, it's your problem. I don't want to discourage you, but understand what you're committing to and make sure you have adequate buy-in in your organization.

That reminds me of work. I'm old, young me has been through the mistakes and the pain of wanting to control and self-host everything.

Now I manage a team of young idealists who have not yet been burned sufficiently hard by reality and I feel like I spend half of my time denying them permission to add new self-hosted services to our stack.

Just last month a young padawan was pissed at the spent on an external auth service and had been pushing hard for a self hosted OSS solution which he was convinced he could handle by himself (which was most likely true, from a purely technical standpoint).

Since he wouldn't let it go, I "punished" him by having him spend one day in excel and powerpoint to prepare a cost benefit analysis to present to the architecture review board, including server cost, backups, redundancy, security, monitoring, pen-testing, auditing, his time and all the bells and whistles we needed to be compliant with all the ISO-x we have to be. (we're in a banking related field).

Our estimated internal cost ended up about 6x the one of the SASS solutions and still wasn't as reliable.

Most people don't understand the amount of effort it requires to run a secure & reliable system and if I had a dollar for everytime I heard it's as simple as "docker run", I could retire early.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The forms app is useless. It's basically for surveys. I can't see how you'd use it for signups.

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[–] ilmagico@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Never upgrade to the latest and greatest of ... anything really, especially in production. Let others test it first, or as suggested already, have a staging environment where you test the upgrade first. I guess you can still downgrade nextcloud though, especially if you have a backup.

Are you using the AIO image? I don't know how well that works, but yeah, I absolutely hate automatic updates like that. I tried it once and I decided to use the plain "official but not supported" docker image instead, where I manage things myself. Never had an issue, and I can control which version I'm running, I can backup to wherever I want, using whichever system I want, etc.

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