this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2024
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traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns

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Hi comrades, want to give you all an informal update on the discussions around the site's misogyny problems that've been happening over the last several days. I wanna make sure you know that the admin/mod team has seen all of that discourse and we've been actively discussing solutions in the matrix mod chat. We're taking this shit very seriously and acknowledge that we haven't used a heavy enough hand on misogynistic rhetoric. As some of you saw we nuked that cheating thread from a couple weeks ago and handed out temp bans to the most egregious offenders. Idk how that was allowed to run it's course but we apologize for that oversight. We're going to do better.

We've come up with some ideas for how to improve this part of the site culture and we want to get suggestions from y'all as well, since the alarm was sounded on this by our beautiful c/traa posters to begin with. Our ideas so far include:

  1. A zero-tolerance policy towards any even remotely misogynistic/patriarchal posts or comments, as too much has slipped through the cracks on that, establishing a clear protocol for bans for violating rules against misogyny, and ideally tracking repeat offenders in a way that makes deciding a course of action easy when they reoffend.

  2. Uphold TC69 thought by starting up a book club (and hopefully more to follow) on feminist theory and encouraging mass participation, particularly from the he/him's on the site. "The Will to Change" by bell hooks has been suggested by multiple people as a great starting point but please feel free to suggest any other works.

  3. Relaunching /c/menby with a trusted educated mod team and a specific focus on countering mainstream narratives about masculinity, relationships and sex that breed reactionary, patriarchal attitudes

  4. Encouraging [namely femme] participation in /c/womenby and taking steps to revitalize that sub as an excellent source of discussion on feminism and intersectionality

  5. Holding another mod drive to get more folks into mod positions in our communities who can help weed out reactionary attitudes

  6. Encouraging users to use the report button often on any post that seems even remotely sus, with the promise that no one's going to be punished for "report abuse" for reporting posts in obvious good faith

Please let me know your thoughts on the above or any other ideas you have for making the site better, safer and more inclusive for our femme comrades. Once we've fully hammered out plans and updated policy we plan to make an announcement post highlighting these changes for the whole userbase. Thank you all for being here and being who you are feminism trans-heart

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[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 81 points 1 month ago (28 children)

rat-salute-2

I'd like to kick off a little discussion since this comment about the way Hexbear often assumes the reason women aren't having more children is that material conditions for them are poor, when it actually is the opposite from @Othello@hexbear.net has stuck with me and it's a really important discussion that wasn't really properly addressed/developed in that thread (in fact, many commenters just kinda dismissed the point love made with the exact kinda rote vulgar materialism Othello was arguing against in the first place!)

Maybe it deserves its own thread, maybe the admins/mods should take a look at what happened there, IDK.

[–] Othello@hexbear.net 51 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Goodness I feel flattered. I dont even think I explained myself as well as i could have i was so pissed off from seeing another post or comment hand-wringing about population rates in rich industrialized countries for the umpteenth time. this was actully why i felt the need to take a break from hexbear. and i mean im glad i did ive been touching grass more then ever before and am pissed off over internet things far less (still way too often). actually, i would not have seen this comment so quickly if not notified by my friends. anyway thanks for all the love in this thread yall, very sweet, i shall be off though as the edibles are kicking in and i need to lay down immediately.

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[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 46 points 1 month ago (13 children)

I think declining birthrate ( without doing some malthusian eugenics shit) isn't necessarily a bad thing long term.

[–] sewer_rat_420@hexbear.net 38 points 1 month ago

Not only that, its inevitable, even if there wasnt climate change, world population would decrease long term.

Financial situations aside, i dont think my wife and I would have ever planned for more than 2 kids. I dont know when we will financially even start having kids, but what is the point in having more then 2?

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[–] aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net 44 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

Yeah the position a lot of people have on here with regards to birthrates, the position that Othello was calling out, where people think that if you improve "material conditions" more women will start having children, is just not compatible with reality.

In reality, the poorest countries with the worst education have the highest birthrates, while the wealthiest countries with good education have the lowest birthrates. I've also gotten into this in previous comments as well. As materialists, our positions should be based in reality and not vibes, and the reality is very clear on this.

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[–] RedWizard@hexbear.net 43 points 1 month ago

My wife's dad is one of 18 kids. That's unthinkable. My dad is one of like 8 kids, also a unimaginable number of kids. Both were basically in farm country. The conditions under which they had those kids were wildly different then the conditions we live in now. My wife has a degree, her grandmothers didn't, my wife's mom is a veteran and the primary breadwinner in the house, also not true of her mother or mother-in-law. They didn't have those opportunities.

How is someone supposed to achieve any of that if they are literally pregnant for almost 15 fucking years straight? At the time that they were having kids women had only just gained the right to have a fucking bank account. Oral birth control was only just becoming available in 1960. So much of a womens life was under direct control of their husbands. No fault divorce wasn't a thing until 1969. 1970 Reed v Reed ended will discrimination. My youngest uncle was born around the time that women could finally get lines of credit (1974), meaning up until then they couldn't legally own a house. I could go on, or you can just look at the timeline of rights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_legal_rights_in_the_United_States_(other_than_voting)

It's so painfully obvious that it was the lack of independence within the social system that lead to "high birth rates" and that when given the opportunity to do anything other then pump out kids, women chose to not pump out kids.

The entire line of attack on women from the right is centered around reversing the rights they have gained. The goal of that line of attack is to get the birth rate to rise again. Abortion rights is the beachhead, no fault divorce is being whispered about by some right wing psychos. If it was money that made the birthrate go up then that's how they would solve it. The fact that these rights are under siege is evidence that they believe this will make birthrates to up. They've said as much as well. It's not theory or speculation.

[–] Poogona@hexbear.net 36 points 1 month ago (5 children)

I remember a conversation I had with a friend who'd been getting really into Hardcore History and wanted to talk some cool ass history with me, the history minor screm-cool

We got on the topic of how the aztecs had instituted a sort of doctrinal loophole saying that women who died in childbirth also got to go to the Valhalla-equivalent that was normally for men who died in combat. I laughed and said "well yeah, I can imagine plenty of women didn't want to risk their fucking lives by having kids back then, makes sense that there would be a lot of reluctance towards childbirth that they'd try to address with a little media campaign."

This friend got really upset with me and claimed that I was projecting modern attitudes (woke wasn't really a big term yet) onto the past. I wanted to smoke his weed so I didn't start an argument but the patriarchy detector was beeping like crazy

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[–] Llituro@hexbear.net 81 points 1 month ago (3 children)

my "shut the fuck up and listen" strategy continues to pay untold dividends

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[–] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 65 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Wow redfash tankie mods won't even let boys be boys soviet-huff

[–] RagingGingivitis@hexbear.net 37 points 1 month ago (11 children)

this was very obviously cishet men. i haven’t seen a trans dude ever say it was a good idea to put a woman in physical danger out of spite.

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[–] Angel@hexbear.net 58 points 1 month ago (46 children)

Personally speaking, to give my own insight into another subject that others have discussed in this thread, I am all for a neutral (meaning neither specifically masculine nor feminine-aligned) non-binary space.

Seeing cisheteronormativity and binarism rife on every corner of the internet is deeply exhausting and honestly makes me feel like I'm "broken" for existing in a way that is far beyond any of it.

Not all trans people are non-binary either, so I can't say that I'm 100% confident that enbyphobia/transmedicalism would never "leak," even if just a little bit, into this community.

Truthfully, as inclusive as Hexbear can seem, I don't give any unambiguous trust to anyone who is cis, hetero, white, or neurotypical. The fact that this thread needed to be made in the first place can show you why.

"Leftists" will go mask off and spew hatred towards someone like me when it no longer benefits them to pretend that they're not hateful bigots.

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[–] asante@hexbear.net 57 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (8 children)

woah those are great changes!

very based mod team heart-sickle feminism

  1. Encouraging users to use the report button often on any post that seems even remotely sus, with the promise that no one's going to be punished for "report abuse" for reporting posts in obvious good faith

ayy now i have no report button anxiety

[–] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 45 points 1 month ago (1 children)

UNLIMITED REPORTS ON THE 1ST WORLD (hexbear)

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[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 57 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Thanks for trying to do better, Hexbear.

Criticism and Self Criticism! mao-wave

[–] buh@hexbear.net 54 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Bit idea: transitioning to avoid being purged from hexbear

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[–] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 49 points 1 month ago

wow im glad i have no idea wtf happened

[–] niph@hexbear.net 49 points 1 month ago (11 children)

I just read the thread and even though most comments are deleted you can get the flavour of what people were saying. The way that some people are almost gleeful about the prospect of a woman being physically endangered is gross.

I think there might be a difficult discussion to be had about whether there’s a link between some of the more general politically violent rhetoric / fantasising on here and an implication that any violence against perpetrators of perceived wrongs is justified. I would hope comrades are able to distinguish between supporting resistance movements and the violence that’s necessary for the overthrow of capitalism on the one hand, and violence against individuals perceived to have committed some personal moral infraction on the other. But Western and especially Anglo culture is extremely individualistic, and that has created the framework through which many users on this site see the world.

I’m not sure what solutions there are to this, but some self-reflection is likely the place to start.

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[–] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 47 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Great responsive action! This is why I'd choose the bear. sicko-hexbear

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[–] RagingGingivitis@hexbear.net 47 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

full support on pushing back against misogyny, that thread was a dumpster fire and made me logout for like a week.

dumpster-fire

[–] take_five_seconds@hexbear.net 47 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

hell yeah ban their asses

looks at own pronouns

aw fuck

edit: i liked when tcsex# made us all read, should do it again

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[–] thelastaxolotl@hexbear.net 46 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Uphold TC69 thought red-sun

Unlimited Purges on reactionaries qin-shi-huangdi-fireball

[–] buh@hexbear.net 45 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)
[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 37 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Absolutely astounding amount of self reports, love to see it.

[–] Anvil_Lavigne@hexbear.net 38 points 1 month ago (13 children)

when i first saw the announcement, i thought it'd be hilarious if it turned into a honeypot situation

well

[dumbest girl alive by 100 gecs comes on]

i was violently wrong cat-confused

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[–] belligerentkitten@hexbear.net 44 points 1 month ago (3 children)

i've seen several comments on this thread to the effect of "pls explain to me why the cheating thread was bad so i can self crit"

and i have misgivings about this. this is not the place for it. i'm glad they're open to reconsidering their perspective and the poorly named comm for deconstructing this shit has been resurrected and that's probably a good place to start. but reopening it in the post about the misogyny purge just kinda derails the actual discussion and expects the people misgyny is directed at to do all the work of educating them.

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[–] drinkinglakewater@hexbear.net 42 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Count me as another interested in the reading group, lately I feel like I've been too careless with how I talk about issues surrounding women.

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[–] belligerentkitten@hexbear.net 41 points 1 month ago (11 children)

in continuation of my previous comment about people asking to be educated in this thread, specifically over the cheating thread. previous comment here. i realised i forgot to add this earlier

i genuinely find it kinda disturbing that people who presumably consider themselves feminists, in a very leftist space like this, need to have this explained to them. yeah it's much better to ask (in the right context, not this thread) than not to know. but i can't help see it as a significant failure in empathising with women and others marginalised by patriarchy, and understanding how the violence of patriarchy affects our existence. so maybe you need to work on developing that empathy, and i mean this regardless of the gender of the posters in question. people of any gender can make that mistake.

in the context of the cheating thread, the question is not about whether cheating is okay, or whether the husband deserved to know. yeah, if you're gonna be monogamous that's a commitment you should take seriously like any other you make in a relationship. but it has nothing to do with that, not really. the question is,

violence against womendoes the woman in the thread deserve to be a victim of domestic violence, abused, or murdered? because intervening in a relationship you know nothing about has a very real chance of making that a reality. that is the reality of living under patriarchy.
that supeceeds any concern about the ethics of cheating.

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[–] poopedmypants@hexbear.net 41 points 1 month ago (24 children)

While we're at it, can we also ban loss: the longest running miscarriage meme?

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[–] AmericaHaterSexHaver@hexbear.net 39 points 1 month ago (14 children)

I think it would have been funnier to have a bot do a temp ban of 1 day for literally every user that doesnt have a femme pronoun set on their profile

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[–] ashinadash@hexbear.net 38 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Unlimited The Will To Change bookclubs on the hexbear world, fuck yeah. Whole post looks solid at a glance, but particularly

with the promise that no one's going to be punished for "report abuse" for reporting posts in obvious good faith

I am a complete dweeb with an inability to read tone and never hit the Report button without sweating profusely first, so I really dig this.

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[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 37 points 1 month ago (12 children)

third time's the charm on c/menby i guess.

good overall but these gendercomms need posters, and posters need content and i don't know where they'll get it: recurring womens' issues stuff is mostly transmisogyny and doom about christofascists regression while recurring mens' issues stuff is ???

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[–] Mindfury@hexbear.net 37 points 1 month ago (5 children)

again, the only time "australia" stays winning is when we completely miss what sounds like some absolutely atrocious posting

all these points sound pretty good and more than fair. any cis dudes (which I am) taking issue with this or any similar actions, and anyone who receives a mere temp ban over these rules and gets mad instead of taking time to self-crit, should probably fucking heem themselves

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[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 36 points 1 month ago (14 children)

Maybe this is too complicated, but I like the idea of a formal process for people to educate themselves and self crit. Maybe first time an offender catches a temp ban and needs to reflect and post upon returning identifying what unexamined biases led them into error in the first place? Just a thought

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