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submitted 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

This week, hundreds of delegates from around the world began a monthlong meeting as part of Pope Francis’ “Synod on Synodality”—a gathering to discuss the future of the Catholic Church. It could radically change the religion. The group is considering groundbreaking alterations to orthodoxy on same-sex unions and whether or not women can be ordained as priests. The process has changed, too. For the first time, delegates include women.

A synod is a conference for church leaders and lay people to engage in conversation about how to bolster the good of the church. Since the 1960s, delegates from the global church have come together to discuss evolving issues. The current synod is part one of a multi-year process that will culminate in 2024 with Francis’ decisions and includes particularly controversial topics, like celibacy and divorce.

The lead up has been punctuated by conservative concerns about just how liberal this meeting may get. The synod kicks off days after a letter became public in which the pope considered blessing the existence of queer couples and the allowance of female priests.

Pope Francis wrote that while marriage is an “exclusive, stable and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally open to conceiving children,” pastoral charity is also needed, and may be discretionary. Pastoral prudence, he wrote, “must adequately discern if there are forms of blessing, solicited by one or various persons, that don’t transmit a mistaken concept of marriage.” On female priesthood, the pope asserted that, whereas nobody can publicly contradict the church’s current rules prohibiting women’s ordination, they should study it.

For some, this rhetoric may seem like the bare minimum. But for others, like Americans on the right, it’s scary as hell.

Conservative Catholics across the U.S. have been some of the most vocal globally in pushing against reforms, and fear that the church is changing in a way that doesn’t match scripture or their ideology. One New York City priest, Reverend Gerald Murray, worried publicly that the pope “will authorize things that are not contained in Catholic doctrine or that will contradict it,” like women deacons or blessing gay unions. “We’re not Protestants,” he said.

Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, Archbishop Emeritus of St. Louis, a vocal opponent to Pope Francis, was in the group that sent the pope a letter inquiring how he would be responding to these issues at the summit. “It’s unfortunately very clear,” Burke said on Tuesday, “that the invocation of the Holy Spirit on the part of some has as its aim to push forward an agenda that is more political and human than ecclesiastical and divine.” (Burke was not invited to the meeting at the Vatican.)

Pope Francis’ track record on queer and women’s rights is complicated. He formally allowed women to read from the Bible during Mass, but also came out against women becoming ordained. Speaking about queer people in 2013, the pope famously asked, “If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them?” He has argued that homosexuality should not be treated as a crime in different countries but clarifies that he still thinks it’s a sin. Francis has framed many of these decisions as instances where localities should turn toward scripture and an evolving discernment as it befits their needs as part of his hope of growing the Catholic Church.

Because of this potential divide between local and global doctrine and application, it is possible that American Catholics may not even see these changes, should they be formally supported by the pope but not adopted by local priests.

As Mother Jones previously reported, American catholicism has splintered as some of the devout entrench themselves in wider conservative politics. Right-wing provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulos and Steve Bannon notably have moved in Catholic circles saying Pope Francis should be curtailed. Yiannopoulos, who touts a traditionalist form of Catholicism, has been telling anyone who will listen to him, to “make the Vatican straight again” and “make America homophobic again.”

The pope himself seems unfazed by the ire of American Catholics. “They got mad,” he told reporters in late August after a squabble. “But move on, move on.”

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[-] Bdtrngl@lemmy.world 131 points 8 months ago

Until they start paying tax and stop molesting children all of them can fuck right off.

[-] gregorum@lemm.ee 69 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

As someone who is not an only atheist but an anti-theist, I have no love for the Catholic Church and either its ancient, middle-age, or present form. However, I’m also a realist. For the Catholic Church to even be publicly willing to discuss such matters (especially things like LGBTQ issues and female ordainment), well, even I’ll admit that something decent may come from this in the end, even if it’s not all what decent society may want (or demand).

In its history, the Catholic Church has been on of the world’s most renowned institutions for being inflexible in its conservative dogma. Extremely rarely do the even ever discuss openness, especially publicly, to changing doctrine. This is one of those extremely few times. I would be extremely shocked if nothing came from this, especially considering the current pope.

Certainly, there are many tractors that will hold back the more radical of proposed changes, but now is the time where we will see any serious changes were likely to see for a long time within the Catholic Church. I’m excited to see what manages to get done at this synod.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 34 points 8 months ago

I am sure this is a "be careful what you wish for" moment, but part of me is hoping that the American conservative Catholics are insane enough to try appointing their own Trump-aligned antipope and schism from the church, just so that the more rational Catholics in the US can have their literal "Come to Jesus" realization about how far gone the political right has become.

I firmly believe that there is a scary number of Americans who would get behind such a move. But at this point, I have just about accepted that the political divide in the US will not end peacefully, so if that's our fate, I'd like to at least have the lines drawn cleanly.

[-] gregorum@lemm.ee 15 points 8 months ago

You’re describing every form of Protestantism since Martin Luther.

C’mon…

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

A bit different; protestantism disagrees with the practice of having a centralized church at all, while other schisms in the Catholic church that took place in the past still maintained the church structure. They just appointed antipopes that were more politically aligned with their ideals.

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[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 6 points 8 months ago

not just that but literally from this article:

"marriage is between a man and a woman"

no it fucking isnt. Source: all the places where you can get married without being a man and a woman.

they are saying pasta can only have red sauce while i eat a bowl of carbonara in front of them.

the best one can do now is say "marriage *should go back to being between a man and a woman", which they won't because they're fucking cowards.

they should own up to their own stupid ass beliefs.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 87 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yiannopoulos, who touts a traditionalist form of Catholicism, has been telling anyone who will listen to him, to “make the Vatican straight again” and “make America homophobic again.”

My dude, you are queer. You married a man and were proudly gay until a year ago. You're only just now faking a successful conversion to the straight life so your new Nazi friends don't lynch you in town square.

Go back to Britain and stop making American politics worse than it already is. Or stick around and don't act surprised when you inevitably get "Night of the Long Knives"-ed.

[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 47 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I went to google when his change happened (March 2021, for the record) and apparently since then he's taken up the cause of fundraising for conversion camps... so that's fun

[-] ChrisLicht@lemm.ee 6 points 8 months ago

Have you seen his pitch video for a Virgin Mary statue?

https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1460270627651305476

[-] VubDapple@lemmy.world 34 points 8 months ago

The most vicious persecutors are those who attack in others what they repress in themselves.

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[-] ChrisLicht@lemm.ee 6 points 8 months ago

I never thought of Milo as a fitter Ernst Röhm with highlights.

[-] Davel23@kbin.social 82 points 8 months ago

Reverend Gerald Murray, worried publicly that the pope “will authorize things that are not contained in Catholic doctrine or that will contradict it,”

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholic doctrine is what the Pope says it is. The Pope is supposed to be God's representative on Earth, or some bullshit like that.

[-] tacosanonymous@lemm.ee 41 points 8 months ago

Yes. You wouldn’t believe how many Americans think they know their god's will better than god though.

I’ve said it for decades but misogyny is something conservatives will never let go. It’s part of their identity.

[-] June@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Misogyny is literally baked into the Bible.

1 Timothy 11-12

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.”

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

“Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

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[-] SeaJ@lemm.ee 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

That was exactly my thought. Reverend Gerald Murray doesn't seem to know some of the basics of Catholicism.

[-] uid0gid0@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

The same verses that the Pope drives his authority from say that he can so change stuff. Matthew 16:17-19.

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, b and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades c will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be d bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be e loosed in heaven

[-] fluxion@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

As Lord Jiraiya's representative on Earth, I can confirm this

[-] PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 5 points 8 months ago

12 years of Catholic school here and you would be correct, sir/madam.

[-] negativeyoda@lemmy.world 73 points 8 months ago

So Vatican 3 basically.

Back in the day mass was done entirely in Latin and the priest didn't address the congregation. This didn't change until the '60s. Some sects are still pissed off over it

[-] DieguiTux8623@feddit.it 11 points 8 months ago

Wait, what... we aren't even done with Vatican Council 2! 🤣

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Don't sweat it. These days nobody completes their papal backlog. It's a running meme.

Just make sure to wait for the Christmas sales.

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[-] troglodytis@lemmy.world 48 points 8 months ago

"God is love." -god

"That bastard!" - conservative worshipers

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[-] PorradaVFR@lemmy.world 33 points 8 months ago

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ok. Let 'em be mad.

[-] DrSleepless@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

They're already mad about something, I'm sure.

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[-] Art3sian@lemmy.world 32 points 8 months ago

Fairytale believers angry that fairytale is changing.

[-] Dkarma@lemmy.world 26 points 8 months ago

Raymond Burke is a piece of shit who covered up sexual abuse of children. How he's still free blows my mind.

[-] Tired8281@lemmy.ca 24 points 8 months ago

Wow, is Catholicism really ready to enter the 20th century!?

[-] SCB@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

More accurate to say that some Catholic leaders are

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[-] Iamdanno@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago

If you can just get together and decide "OK, now rule X has been changed to rule Y"; how is anyone supposed to take any of it seriously? It is literally made up as it suits them.

[-] protist@mander.xyz 14 points 8 months ago

I'm not here to defend any religion, but you're basically describing a social contract, which is just how humanity is organized

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 18 points 8 months ago

But the central conceit of any religious faith is the belief in the divine. The Pope is supposed to speak for God, the creator of all things, and the infallible judge of every soul that has or will have ever lived. Changing it to suit the modern social contract is a tacit admission that they were full of shit the entire time.

Like if the Church started blessing gay marriages, then all those homophones who marched around with plaquards promoting bigotry would have to acknowledge that they were just ordinary, hateful morons, instead of divinely righteous holy warriors.

[-] militant_spider@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

The entirety of the modern Christian faith is that god said one thing to one group and then changed it. This is not to get into the debate of authenticity or logic of religion or anything like that, it’s simply how it’s always been. God said only the Jews get to be my people. Then it was everyone who believes. God said no unclean meats. The he said the meats were fine. It’s the nature of the Christian faith. If you include the Mormons, there’s more changes, but I don’t know them.

Within the faith, it’s accepted as basically a change in the promises god made to humanity. And if we look at it giving them some leeway, why can’t he change it again?

[-] PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 5 points 8 months ago

Hey hey now, no need to bring homophones into this! What’s wrong with ewe!

[-] Art3sian@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

The answer is, they don’t agree and that’s how religion branches off and all these hundreds of denominations come into existence.

I worked in an Anglican school two years ago and it almost happened in my time there. As more kids were coming through with fluid gender, half the clergy were in support, the other half weren’t, so there was talk about splitting up and creating some kind of Anglicanism 2.0.

So, you’ve gotta wonder, if this has been going on for 2,000 years how far off its original tracks is religion today? And people still follow it like it’s God’s word? Even if it was God’s word we’ve proper fucked it a few hundred times times to suit our narrative since.

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[-] Chozo@kbin.social 7 points 8 months ago

It is literally made up as it suits them.

This started literally thousands of years ago.

[-] Streptember@kbin.social 5 points 8 months ago

Yeah, when you start off with "Everything we say is always right", then any change of stance or admission of error immediately brings everything else into question.

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[-] Pratai@lemmy.ca 13 points 8 months ago

Conservative US Christians are mad as hell.

LOVE to see it!

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[-] spider@lemmy.nz 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Right-wing provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulos and Steve Bannon notably have moved in Catholic circles saying Pope Francis should be curtailed.

Meanwhile, Bannon's friend Cheeto Jesus gets a pass.

[-] creamed_eels@toast.ooo 10 points 8 months ago

Yiannopoulos, who touts a traditionalist form of Catholicism, has been telling anyone who will listen to him, to “make the Vatican straight again” and “make America homophobic again.”

…what kind of self-hating fuckery is this?

[-] drislands@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

He's also pro-child abuse. No idea why anyone gives him a platform.

[-] popemichael@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 8 months ago

I'd give it a better than zero percent chance that he's dug up and put on trial after death

[-] buzz86us@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

Hopefully a ban on backing political candidates.. That shit is toxic

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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
383 points (96.4% liked)

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