this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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I know that it's Chinese and it translates roughly as "white/Western left." Looking it up on the Chinese wiki, Google translate gives me... well, this:

It is used to describe people who support policies such as the abolition of the death penalty , [ 3 ] animal protection , environmental protection , body equality , skin equality , LGBT , feminism , vegetarianism , marijuana decriminalization , euthanasia , abortion and immigration , that is, people with cultural leftist ideas in the European and American world.

This paints baizuo as something akin to American conservative terms like "woke" or "SJW." On the other hand, I've seen baizuo on Hexbear a few times, but in those contexts it seemed to mean something closer to "succdem" or "Western chauvinist" rather than the definition above. Obviously, a term used to insult feminists, LGBT people, and environmentalists would be incredibly out of place on this site, hence why I'm asking about it rather than taking a machine-translated Wiki article at face value.

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[–] CloutAtlas@hexbear.net 35 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Honestly didn't know the etymology coming from an unhinged weirdo, but I've generally used it (irl mind you, I'm in China) as a handwaive when family asks about why X in the west is bad/inefficient/non-existent and "right wingers" isn't the cause.

Like what's with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.

Or if a policy that does (ostensibly) benefit poor people but is means tested to death, and they ask why it's set up like that. 白左

But I don't really often hear it in China. My family is just weirdly politically engaged due to being former Party members and revolutionaries. The average guy in the street is absolutely not going to use the phrase ever.

Yeah sure weirdos on XHS will also use it to refer to any aspect of the Western "left" they see online that they disagree with, but it's wholly inconsistent. Could be addressing Ultras. Or trots. Or liberals. Or redditors. Or nazbols. Or socdems. Or demsocs. I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Like what's with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.

The aversion to nuclear power here in europe is mostly the cultural scars that chernobyl had on Europe along with various different instances of massive polluting by major companies and nobody believing any for-profit company could be trustworthy enough to manage it safely.

It can't be understated how significant Chernobyl was on european mindsets about nuclear power. That shit legitimately did nearly destroy europe and people's attitudes to nuclear power were very heavily affected by it. Those attitudes then passed on.

Another small part of me thinks that anti-nuclear power movements were also tied together with anti-nuclear movements and that such movements possibly once believed that opposing nuclear power helped prevent nuclear weapon proliferation because they wouldn't have the materials to be enriched for weapons. But this thought is not really based on anything I've read, I think it's something that might have been discussed by orgs privately at the time though.

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[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 month ago

I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.

Isn't this the general sentiment there already? I thought they already thought of Shanghai as honorary westerners, or trying way too hard to be westerners.

[–] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 29 points 1 month ago

I always thought it was a rightoid gotcha to own the leftists with their own logic of "China is trad and hates you".

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 27 points 1 month ago (6 children)

Baizuo was either came up by or came up by a fan of some reactionary netizen who's famous for some unhinged ideology called Auntology. You can read a summary of Auntology for yourself. It's just unhinged reactionary shit. A weird part of it is that he actually wants to balkanize China. I think a lot of those balkanized China maps floating around were made by his shitty fandom. So the weird thing about him is he isn't a Chinese ultranationalist (he doesn't think China should exist) or a Han chauvinist (he apparently thinks Han isn't a real ethnicity) but some Chinese reactionary who wants to balkanize China.

The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn't just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.

That term was always sus.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's right wing term used by a rightoid minority as far as I can tell

[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

what-the-hell What the fuck, why is it being used as an insult on Hexbear

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[–] awth13@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn't just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.

That’s not how Chinese language works. Just because 白 (bái) can be part of a word that means “idiot” doesn’t mean that it is infused with the meaning of idiocy. That’s like saying “the bai in baizuo is also from mingbai, which means clear/reasonable so baizuo doesn’t just mean white left but also reasonable left”. Which is obviously absurd lol. In most contexts, 白 means “white” and nothing else, although there are obviously many cultural associations with the colour white that are layered on top of that.

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The connection between baizuo and baichi was established by those reactionaries. Like, you can say that baizuo is just an abbreviated form of baichi zuopai (idiotic left). "bai = white and zuo = left, so baizuo = white left" is something you would say if you just ran each character individually through Google Translate. Nobody calls the Black Panthers "heizuo" even though the two characters translated separately is "Black left."

My broader point is that the term, due to its reactionary origins, isn't as innocently translated as "white left."

[–] awth13@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The connection between baizuo and baichi was established by those reactionaries. Like, you can say that baizuo is just an abbreviated form of baichi zuopai (idiotic left).

Is this your hypothesis or did you read this somewhere? The wiki article in the OP says 是”白人”与“左派”两个标签结合组成的称号, i.e., it’s a grouping of “white person” and “left wing”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s just that I didn’t get that vibe as someone who speaks Chinese, especially because 白痴 is more of a clinical/bookish term for idiot and not something I heard people say very often in everyday life. I only went to uni in China and I’m not a native speaker though.

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[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Hmm a "soyboy wojak" situation

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

Or how "aquaponics" is "aquaculture hydroponics."

auntology? ain't that what mark fisher was always on about?

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Auntology as a handle is really funny though, if it's a pun on hauntology

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I've actually never seen baizuo used in the context that wiki is suggesting, at least not on hexbear or reddit. When liberals use it they've always intended it as a semi-racist "Why do you support china if you're white?" insult which betrays their nationalism, when hexbears use it it's always been about chauvinism.

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

Facts. It never is used to call someone a hypocrite, it's always used as a new way to call any white person that doesn't immediately fall in line a race traitor.

[–] grandepequeno@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

A lot of those issues are in fact only mostly hegemonic in the western left, and even that is a recent thing that I do think it's probably related to how we can't really get anything done with economic issues.

In the rest of the world where life is generally worse it doesn't shock me that other things are prioritized, and in some countries where these issues are used as cudgels by imperial core countries (to condition aid or policy) opposing them passes as an anti-imperialist, or at least pro-sovereignty, cause.

It's also true that someone who supports all these culturally left positions doesn't necessarily support other historically leftists causes like anti-imperialism and anti-militarism (anti-nato), so I guess some chinese people invented a term for that kind of leftist, which, from the outside I guess if you count the "left" very broadly from center-left socdems to progressive liberals it would seem like that's all the "white left" is.

[–] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Just an aside the Chinese Language Wiki is blocked in mainland China and mainly maintained by taiwanese and hong konger users so take that into account

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[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Basically a slur for white people made by the people that claim they love white people to punish any white people that don’t immediately fall in line.

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I mean, honestly, would probably be good for us to get a taste of our own medicine for a change.

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

For sure, but I always find it funny that the biggest source of slurs for white people come from mfs who claim they want to "help" us.

[–] HammerAndSickle@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.

These people can't build working class power (and social levelling would threaten their privilege) so they just aim to be moralists on the internet to make themselves feel good.

Western leftism isn't leftism, it's the thing that killed it.

[–] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Western leftism isn't leftism, it's the thing that killed it.

Oh, would you shut up? Did you forget the Marxism that came with Marxism-Leninism? (Admittedly, Marx and Engels would've had some western brainworms to deal with; I understand if yer referring to modern-day leftists who align with western foreign policy)

Oh and speaking of

Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.

Apparently, it comes from one of those damned Chinese reactionaries that China should've cracked down more upon

Communication researcher Fang Kecheng believes that the term first appeared in an article published by a Renren user, right-wing libertarian and market fundamentalist named "Li Shuo" titled "The Pseudo-morality of Western White Leftists and Chinese Patriotic Scientists", criticizing Western leftists who sympathize with Communist China (citing Chomsky and Yang Zaohanchun ), mainly referring to the left wing in economic and political thought [ 5 ] [ 7 ] [ a ] .

cringe

After evolution and conceptual transformation, the term "left" now only refers to the left and right on social issues, and has nothing to do with the left and right in economic thought. During the 2016 US presidential election , "white leftists" began to be widely used by Chinese netizens [ 8 ] .

This is like the evolution of the Terry Davis term, used to refer to feds, starting with 'glow' (Ctrl + 4), the term just broadened away but never yet quite fell so far

I'll tell you this, the last time someone used that sort of language regularly, in lemmygrad.ml, they were banned @JoeDaRedTrooperYT@lemmygrad.ml

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

"Western Marxism" can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it's literally Marxism with only Western thought. Marx was carried forward by so many non-Western thinkers into a more revolutionary and more complete theory, but Western Marxism avoids all those yucky extremists so it can be taught in Western Universities.

It's where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.

[–] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

"Western Marxism" can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it's literally Marxism with only Western thought.

I apologize, it's a gut reaction, I'm just uncomfortable with now using the term "baizuo", when it has such reactionary brainworms... you know

I am opposed to western leftism, due to its anti-AES, idealist tendencies, and pro-western foreign policy, but I don't like it when homegrown reactionaries use the term to not only bash them but us as well...

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

That's why Western Marxism or Western leftism is actually the best thing to call it. Leaves no room for confusion for reactionaries to use for their cryptofash bullshit

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[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.

The only people I know that call themselves marxist but fit this description now are either trots(not all of them though) or r/ultraleft.

[–] SocialistDovahkiin@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

Yes, but that's clearly not the only use of the term.

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