this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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[–] tomi000@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Enjoying their freedom to be enslaved, as long as its freedom.

[–] Asterisms@lemmy.world 13 points 6 days ago

Even with the issues it has (and there are a LOT of issues— too much to name here), i would still take the canadian healthcare system over the US’. My mom’s medication costs thousands of dollars, and it’s all covered. We wouldn’t be able to afford it otherwise and she’d likely be dead if it weren’t for the coverage.

[–] Sixtyforce@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 days ago

Haha that's not true. Canada is two tiered. You fucking full well know that not everything here is covered.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 97 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Americans: It's all that gosh-darn SOCIALISM that's causing this mess! Because socialism is when all the rich fat cats at the top keep all the earnings for themselves. Fucking dirtbag woke socialists!


And no lessons were learned that day.

Even Mangione has proved undoubtedly that he doesn't entirely understand the very issue that radicalized him. (If he isn't just a patsy, of course)

[–] lukes26@lemm.ee 51 points 1 week ago

I think he's just kinda an ordinary person who grew up privileged. He has fairly standard techbro style libertarian beliefs, but he also has criticisms of some of the influencers he watches, and didn't seem to like Peterson very much. He also seems to be an environmentalist, and I think he seemed to have become more anti-corporation based on the manifesto released (obviously assuming he did it).

Him being a privileged but ordinary guy who still got radicalized reflects a lot more strongly on the plight of everyone who isn't one of the owner class. It doesn't matter that he was relatively wealthy, he still wasn't one of them.

[–] papalonian@lemmy.world 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What information has come out that makes you say the last paragraph? I'm not doubting it's validity in the slightest (I don't think this guy is exactly an infallible source of wisdom), just haven't seen a lot directly from him that would flesh his views out that much.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 28 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

He was pretty pro-Musk and pro-Peter Thiel and certainly wasn't a paragon of leftist thought. While being decently educated and well traveled, he seemed to have a lot of faith in technolibertarian ideals.

I'd say that's clear from his Twitter and Reddit histories. It doesn't mean he's a frothing-at-the-mouth MAGA nut, but it also doesn't mean he's a dyed-in-the-wool leftist who understands the issues.

Further, like most people, he only became radicalized when a serious injury impacted his own life. It didn't make him question the whole system of capitalism, just healthcare.

And all that's fine and not meant to be an indictment one way or another about the guy, but more it's meant to point out that like most Americans, he's seemingly a little confused about larger issues. Which also makes sense since he's only 26, learning about it all takes time.

Finally, I'm still not 100% convinced a bunch of this is just contrived police bullshit to pin it on a patsy, and that's why his motives seem confused. Although I wouldn't be surprised if he's just lacking education and confused, like most Americans.

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[–] rbn@sopuli.xyz 68 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I know it's probably a bit exaggerated on purpose but also in European countries it's definitely not zero. We are in a significantly better situation than the US, that's fot sure. Our problems aren't remotely comparable. But also here, it can happen that certain treatments aren't covered, also here there are (few) people without health insurance and also here people can lose their job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities.

As said, much better but also definitely not 0.

[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 1 points 6 days ago

Damn. Never thought things would be better in Brazil.

[–] kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 week ago (9 children)

There's also the issue of waiting times - you might need care somewhat urgently, but need to either wait for multiple months or pay (or hope that when the issue becomes more immediately life-threatening they can handle it in time). Public healthcare isn't perfect, and at least in many places still needs a lot of work.

Waiting times are atrocious here in the U.S. The earliest in-person appointment that I can get with my GP is about 6 months out. Non-urgent surgeries are sometimes take close to a year. A friend recently had to keep a bladder drain in after surgery for an extra week because there were no doctors who could do the 5-minute removal available.

Anybody who says that long wait times are unique to public health systems is lying.

[–] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 1 points 6 days ago

Wait times are a factor of the number of doctors though. Like in the UK private health insurance may let you skip the queue, but that's only because there's relatively few people capable or willing to take up the private slots. If everyone had health insurance then the "faster" pathway no longer exists (or more likely people who're willing to pay more skip the queue).

[–] usrtrv@sh.itjust.works 32 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I always dislike this take because it pretends the US doesn't have this exact issue. I've known people with less than ideal insurance who had very few doctors to pick from in-network and would take months to get an appointment.

Long wait times still happens in the US. Just like it can happen in public healthcare.

[–] kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's fair, I'm not from the US, and when talking about private healthcare I'm thinking of my own experiences, paying out of my pocket.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

Yeah our wait times are like your free ones, but with higher prices than your paid ones

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[–] HoneyMustardGas@lemmy.world 33 points 1 week ago (6 children)

So, no one in those countries became homeless and bankrupt because of an illness and lost their job? I am asking genuinely because I wouldn't know.

[–] cRazi_man@lemm.ee 51 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

This is hyperbole. Healthcare cost might be covered, but there are a lot more expenses with being sick. Social support and housing support in the UK is laughable. Good luck if you cant work because of disability. The hospital will keep you alive.....and then discharge you to the street.

Still better than America though.

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

True ... even here in Canada social systems are not as good as they could be ... but imagine trying to access shitty social services AND PAYING FOR MEDICAL SERVICES... or worse being in over your head because of medical debt!

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[–] shrodes@lemmy.world 14 points 1 week ago

No, it’s an exaggaration. According to StreetSmart Australia 14% of people became homeless due to becoming unemployed suddenly

With that said we do have MUCH better social welfare programs here in Australia than the US, though there is always more that could be done

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[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 30 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Americans: ... OH YEAH! .... now lets count how many Aircraft Carriers each country has!! ... U! ... S! ... A! ......... U! ... S! ... A! ........ U! ... S! ... A! ..... pulls a muscle from over exerting themselves, has to go to the hospital and pay for treatment

[–] Remotedeck@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

They want to have the freedom to be able to pay for treatment

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 week ago

It's a free country ... as long as you can afford it

.... and also ...

“That's why they call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.” - George Carlin

[–] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.

Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.

I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.

[–] ameancow@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

Neither this meme nor your own lived experiences are good representations of what the average American struggles with in the healthcare system. Speaking as someone who lost a house and almost everything I owned due to medical issues in my family.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you're the one bullshitting.

The most "extreme" it can get in such systems is that they won't pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they're not as good.

Even then, sometimes they will if it's actually worth it (as in: for something that's a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).

That's "your quality of life won't be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they'll only pay for a not as expensive one", not "death panels".

People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.

As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.

PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called "Mixed Systems" that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated than in the US and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US since the Private Insurance Companies there have the very same natural tendency to shaft their clients as the ones in the US and only the local regulations stop them.

[–] saigot@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.

The meme has an "or" in it though. About 20% of Canadian bankruptcy is due to health and illness. Here in Canada the maximum disability is ~1500cad a month, which might pay your rent if you live in a really really cheap area. Part of the reason it's bad like that is because it is so often compared to America, and often greatly exaggerated like in this meme.

[–] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (6 children)

Sorry then.

I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.

The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.

It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.

But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 6 days ago

I'm talking about Universal Health Care systems (for clarity: totally free healthcare for residents in that country), not Public Health Insurance systems.

Europe is unfortunatelly also riddled with the latter system and having lived in countries with one kind and countries with the other, they're quite different and the system with Insurance is invariably worse in terms of denials of coverage as well as cost (also because nowadays they all have laws that force every resident to have health insurance, which as result is more costlier than before those laws - as I saw first hand when I lived in a country with such a system when such a law came into effect), whilst UHC tends to have longer waiting lists (think 1 or 2 years of wait for some cirurgical procedures).

Absolutelly, some of the absurdities of the US system are also present in the so-called "Mixed" Systems (i.e. the ones with healtcare insurance but more regulated and with a public option for some) and if you look at the kinds of governments in those countries for the last 3 decades, you'll notice they've been invariably neoliberal mainstream parties (setting up such systems is part of the broader tendency in Europe to privatise just about everything that has been going on since the 80s and was copied from the US).

IMHO, except for the long waiting times, the problems with Healthcare systems in part of Europe are the result of them having been transformed to become more like the US system in the last 3 decades.

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[–] Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 1 week ago (22 children)

I don't think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon

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[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 21 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

I mean there's definitely people who go bankrupt due to not being able to work due to illness. If you're a private entrepreneur (or what's the correct term E; self-employed was what I meant) for example then that stuff can take you down easily.

[–] FelixCress@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I mean there's definitely people who go bankrupt due to not being able to work due to illness

That has nothing to do with the cost of healthcare.

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 2 points 6 days ago

The meme says "or illness related work loss".

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[–] DiagnosedADHD@lemmy.world 20 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It's almost like .. universal healthcare would make our economy stronger and the insurance companies are the leaches..

[–] dan@upvote.au 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Some people don't want universal health care because they don't want their taxes going towards other people's health care. What they seem to fail to understand is that the exact same thing happens with private health insurance, and some of the money goes towards the insurance company's profits. Universal health care would make things cheaper.

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[–] tfw_no_toiletpaper@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

Lol there are definitely treatments that are very expensive and not covered by some insurances. This is not a "statistic", just opinion. USA has it way worse of course. But I remember my dad having to lend money from friends because some of my mom's cancer treatments were not covered.

Edit: Also wtf why is this in shitpost

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[–] Zementid@feddit.nl 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Well yes,.. but no, you can face significant financial burdens if someone in your family needs living assistance, such as a parent, and the state steps in to cover the costs. The law allows the state to require adult children to contribute to these expenses to a certain degree, but only after all assets of the elder or disabled person have been exhausted ("bankrupting" said person so to speak).

While this is not the same as bankrupting an entire family for life, it can indeed become a heavy financial strain if the parents were not adequately insured or financially prepared for such situations. The obligatio, however, is subject to strict thresholds and limits, such as exemptions for children earning below €100,000 annually, ensuring hardship is avoided.

Edit: "100.000k" sounds like much, but a German Dad providing for 2 kids and a stay at home wife would need this as a bare minimum to pay off the debt for the house 25km from the next medium city, in the next 20 years. No vacation outside Europe. Nothing fancy. If a parent then requires 1200€ per month, it's a massive strain.... so yeah, not bankrupting but painful.

[–] 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

OK, i need to chime in here, there is illness related work loss here in Canada. Also, you can go bankrupt from dental work if you cannot afford dental insurance or your job doesn't offer it (which most jobs that are not union/higher corp don't). You can literally die from poor dental hygiene, and even if you brush your teeth every day and floss, that doesn't mean your scott free from visiting the dentist.

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