Lol no, our culture has been seized by focus groups.
this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2024
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As a White, 30-40 yo male with expendable income, I take offense
Aka MBA and tech bro bullshit
10000%
There is a direct correlation between the number of MBA grads and how shit things become.
There’s a difference between someone who’s an actor and someone who’s distinctly a theater kid, just like there’s a difference between someone who’s a musician and someone who’s distinctly a band kid
you just don't know what these people were like in older generations. these same institutions were producing the same kinds of professionals for the industry long before you were born. it's more difficult to recognize some geezer was an enormous nerd because their reveues are even older. Bruce Willis is a theater kid but instead of Wicked the man knows Bing Crosby shit
Such a good observation.
And it's funny how the theater kid era of creatives turned out to be just as riddled with sleazebags and abusers as the earlier generations who just didn't need to mask their negative behavior so effectively because society hadn't yet progressed as far in terms of recognition of why the various vectors of abuse are bad (avoiding the censor bot by being vague but I mean there's just as manyremoveds and racists) and how to recognize those behaviors and the sorts of personalities who tend to commit them.
yeah now youve made me think of joss whedon who is the avatar of shitty theater kids and he's dominated pop culture for a couple of decades at this point
He's like a third generation screenwriter as well so no one could be normal growing up like that
Good point I was thinking of a couple of cartoon dudes but Whedon is a perfect example.
Theater Kids are really the "Gamers" of the art world.
meanwhile the stage crew kids are stockpiling ammo and waiting
dropping molotovs from the gantries
i can confirm it’s a mixture of this and daddy being an executive
Heavily on the second half.
Amusingly I was watching a compilation of
videos talking about the decline of Adult Swim yesterday where he echoed this observation quite closely.(I DISAVOW, I DISAVOW. DO NOT SUPPORT THIS MAN.)
Sam Hyde
I think of it as the "corporate friendly"-ization of entertainment media.
I reckon the theater kid archetype comes from, basically, outcasts and queer kids spending formative developmental years sharing spaces where they have to accommodate and work with each other and where it is necessary for their social cohesion to develop harmless inoffensive and often child-like innocent ~~personalities (or masks)~~ personas in order to stay socially connected and sane around other fragile people.
This is also the sort of ~~personality (or mask)~~ persona that is most attractive to large corporations because (bla bla classic liberalism theory stuff) gotta keep that market share growing, can't afford a boycott! Better not offend anyone, might make line go down.
this is giving "the Big Woke are too sensitive" vibes I'm sorry
I can definitely understand that response and how my post might read that way, I appreciate you calling it out because I was trying to avoid exactly those vibes but evidently failed. I apologise.
I intended a critique of the homogenisation of culture and convergence on mass appeal (per the "progressive theory" classic liberal defense of capitalism, I forget the correct name for this or the people who wrote about it originally) to the detriment of media being vibrant and diverse and able to be challenging both to existing power structures and to general culture.
There was a time not so long ago when state funded media in western democracies, owing their funding to taxation rather than corporate sponsorship, produced a lot of content which helped move progressive cultural change forward and educated viewership with critiques (sometimes subtle and coded, sometimes overt) of the problems with corporatism and capitalism.
In my country and several that I am aware of, our state funded media no longer produces anywhere near as much interesting programming and I grew up with family who worked in a wing of the state funded media org who was personally damaged by, witnessed and reported back the erosion of freedom to do challenging and subversive programming as the state institution gradually lost funding and promoted liberals rather than leftists into decision making positions. Decades later it is now the most milquetoast bullshit imaginable.
I'm honestly not sure if this post better clarifies my position but I'm not a believer in "Big Woke" type critiques as a rule, if such a thing exists then it is the manifestation of progressive liberal theory put to practice in a world where most media outlets are converging under the ownership of less than a handful of corporations and where their survival depends on not making cultural and political waves. There should be room for "sensitive" programming and there should be room for challenging and subversive programming, but at the moment it seems the profit motive is driving things towards the observed "theater kids" this whole post is about.
If anything I would like to think my post absolves the "theater kids" of blame and places it squarely on the capitalists.
We have the internet now so we also have alternative means for challenging and subversive media to exist and reach an audience but the primary outlets for all of that content are currently under assault from the western capitalist hegemony. I don't expect these outlets to last or to be able to provide cool creators with a livable income for many more years.
Edit: re-reading this post I still don't think I'm mounting a solid defense of your criticism. Your observation is fair and I will take it on board. I'm not sure how else to think and write about this issue without it sounding like "big woke too sensitive" shit. All I can say in my defense is I don't fuck with those people and it sucks that my rhetoric apparently sounds indistinguishable from theirs.
No this is important context. I think maybe you're pointing out the actual phenomenon that right wing people use dishonestly as "proof" of their beliefs, which is that left-wing stuff is often defanged and then catered to insofar that it is still defanged, so that capitalists can protect themselves from boycotts/strikes/actions done in the name of social movements. I think it's more precisely that the "softness" and cultural sensitivity of actors, both dead and alive, is appropriated in such a way that other actors (and theater kids) have to conform to it (avoid bringing up the logical conclusions of progressive ideas because they threaten capital) or risk being fired or having their pay cut.
CW gore very dark metaphor
So it's not Big Woke, it's Big Capital wearing Big Woke's skin as a suit, bludgeoning social movements to death while doing so, and then blaming it on Big Woke's now-discarded pile of skin. "Big Woke" in this case just being previously successful social movements. You can tell most conservatives are full of shit because there is no way any of them care about the forms of radical social movements capitalists are actually repressing this way. They're just angry their leaders want them to be more subtle with the racism etc so they can get away with it.
Yeah for real. I stepped away from the keyboard for a bit to get some fresh air and came to the conclusion that it is just an unfortunate and possibly unavoidable fact that this observable state of affairs can be exploited by bad actors just as it can be critiqued by good actors and the language overlap is very difficult to avoid precisely because fascists have a history of adopting our language and patterns of critique while warping them to their own ends.
So it's not necessarily "my fault" (sorry for the self serving framing here) that my original post vibed the way it did, since there is an active campaign with a lot of apparent mainstream awareness and traction to critique corporate media for this convergent defanging of media. Not because its losing its usefulness as a tool for class consciousness and cultural exploration but because there's less room for anything challenging ie. cultural normalisation of racism and misogyny etc, which is what the right enjoys and wants more of.
Thing is I set myself up for misinterpretation by mentioning Sam Hyde. The fact that his ranting overlapped with the topic of discussion is simply part of the fact that the right wing are taking advantage of this state of affairs to push their own agenda. I should have left that part out of my post since it is immaterial that "coincidentally" fascists are "noticing" this too, while lacking any material analysis in the angle of attack they take.
Sans the Hyde reference, my post would hopefully read more as a defense of theater kids as a phenomenon and that they are being exploited as a convenient source of bland creative labor, not "seizing our culture."
So I just straight fucked up I suppose. But this discussion has been really useful, I appreciate the call out because I realise now that I simply diluted my own point and set a tone for my post which would raise hackles before getting to the point. At least, I figure that's part of it. I'm being a bit presumptuous about the significance of the Hyde shit in how the post was received.
I like your CW'd metaphor, [deleted because I misread. ADHD brained it] no notes.
To agree with you, this phenomena of real observations being used and pushed by bad actors is exactly how things like GamerGate are smuggled into popular culture. In that case, they specifically smuggled in "Games are becoming female and woke." (plus targeted harassment of particular female content creators) from the pretty ubiquitous observation that 'Professional games journalism is pretty much horseshit created to drive sales of increasingly homogenized and poor games, not to critique games and drive improvement of the medium in a way that benefits the consumers or workers in those industries.'
Of course, that was also simply tapping into a misogynistic culture that was already very present and loud, and directing that into 'consumer politics'. It's not like they had much work to actually do.
Yeah, indeed. I've been terminally online for long enough that I was there for the genesis of gamergate and its hijacking. Good point of reference to include in the scope of this discussion.
I agree with this. I do think, also, that it is possible that the "bland media" phenomenon is a result of a lack of class consciousness as well? We seem to put so much stock into trauma-related and dark stuff as "prestige tv", the very things that people who have experienced so much trauma and issues are likely to want to avoid (though of course not always), that the only thing left to do as proper "hard-hitting" media besides that is radical critiques and social commentaries that are positive in tone. And because that has connotations of successful and effective revolution (of many different contexts), that is the only kind of art they are not allowed to do. So the options available to artists under capitalism are basically either venting (but resigned and without catharsis or resolution), purposefully pointless spectacle, or psychic self-harm. It's no wonder basically nothing is compelling, because we have had the actual essence of victory as a concept taken away from our cultural landscape. The only things left are things getting worse, or if we're lucky, stagnancy through struggle ("super hero" stories). In even our most optimistic dreams we've managed to appropriate the appearance of catharsis and relief, but have ousted the thing itself from our collective conception of reality, so its hollow and feels somehow darker than things just getting worse normally.
Wow, yeah. This broadens my thought on the subject a lot. There's a couple of things I feel an impulse to respond to but I'll just pick one. (The other is the suggestion that this is a result of lack of class consciousness, I believe that is also a distinct possibility and that class consciousness may be be being wrung out of the media industry iteratively with each generation of creatives getting further removed from overtly leftist influenced media.) But yeah,
This got me thinking about modern media that I consume and re-consume, that I would still consider transgressive and challenging. I realised there's a couple of running themes- drug addiction, dealing with narcissism and family conflict- or combinations of the three. They'll take shots at capitalism too, but always with the bleak conclusion that "haha go right ahead your struggle only makes me look stronger and my stock price go up."
So there are areas where culture is still waking up to itself and areas where we've turned a blind eye or haven't yet shone much light into the darkness, which provide the material to develop compelling stories. But they're often very individual or interpersonal sorts of issues rather than structural ones and they still hit because these topics are not threatening to the economic structure thus can be explored earnestly with a variety of approaches in terms of level of humour and irony and whatnot by people who are expressing their own lived experiences and traumas. So there's still some "good shit" being made but like the window of acceptable challenging topics is narrowing in on like, "this is why your family is broken" or "this is why you can't keep your friendships going" or "this is why despite being the coolest/smartest dude, you hurt and destroy everything around you" etc.
I'm regularly encountering regular normal retiree (actual) boomer-aged people and not particularly "woke" worker friends using terms like "neurodiverse" now, or coming to realise their own neurodiversity, ruminating on the things "we didn't know" and reflecting on their own and their kids' and grandkids' struggles to thrive effectively in a world not designed for them, raised and educated by people trained to read all abnormal behaviour as disobedience to be punished and brought to heel.
Wait- fuck, those people are the generation mostly still holding the reigns of these corporations, right? I wonder if there's actually a kernel of genuine good will behind making on-the-spectrum friendly media (and so on) so pervasive etc even at the boardroom level. Surely not, though. Right? it's got to be either a coincidence or a consequence of the process we've been exploring. Just maybe I'm recognising the upside to this. Perhaps it takes serious levels of media saturation to effect the kind of social change I'm witnessing in conversation with friends and neighbors and this just happens to be a positive gain that doesn't offset the loss of potential class consciousness raising types of transgressive programming.
I'm remembering what a breath of fresh air Adventure Time was when it came out. There's definitely some good and valuable work being produced within the constraints of the system we've been discussing.
But, like you said, a lot of it continues to lead to hopeless and nihilistic conclusions, as you pointed out. It's cathartic to feel seen and represented. It can help process my traumas to see that I am not a uniquely fucked up individual. Yet still it suggests no solutions. Because like you said, the solution is revolution and we can't have that. (Edit: in fact I'm often left in tears by the end of episodes of these things because it would be much better if my problems were unique and not pervasive, or if I could see characters really make breakthroughs instead of the realistic portrayal of the cyclic nature of trauma and mental illness.)
This post does not add much to the discussion but I want to show appreciation for you expanding the horizon of my thinking on this stuff and helping me recognise some dark patterns in the media that I do still find compelling.
It's New York City, so I'm expecting some Times-level disconnect.
Unfortunately Actors did seize the White House :freedom-and-democracy:
Nobody on the current snl cast seems like a normal person with a good sense of humor
damn how are u just going to do Brace Belden's girlfriend like that
Also Connor O'Malley's GF.
I still defend that cumtown is the epicenter of culture and an artist's popularity is linked to how close they are to Stav. Adam Friedland is responsible for liberals winning football in the culture wars.
Imagine a world where Nick Mullen had a work ethic. (jk jk, I would never criticise my best friend and we don't deserve more from any of these people.)
This is Hugh Jackman slander
Why would any artsy joe want to be in TV. Everyone knows by now that you have to be rich to get in
There's some sort of improv corollary to this thesis as well.
shocking news: "always say yes" is not good advice for cultivating a revolutionary mindset when applied uncritically to the rest of life.
oh shit i accidentally "yes, and"-d my way into wage slavery
Yes, and now we should strangle the boss and run this thing as a cooperative.
Yes