this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court's decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.

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[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 151 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.

[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 69 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

While religion is a protected class, political orientation is not protected. It is perfectly legal (and moral) to ask someone if they are conservative before agreeing to do work for them.

You can even cite a policy to really drive it home: "I do not conduct business with racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, xenophobes, fascists or any other type of conservatives."

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[–] ExLisper@linux.community 25 points 1 year ago (22 children)

Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?

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[–] devz0r@kbin.social 103 points 1 year ago (18 children)

I disagree with him, and I think he's bigoted. But I don't think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn't want to photograph. And it's not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It's the most common side hustle I see people try.

[–] darq@kbin.social 68 points 1 year ago (45 children)

And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not "have the right to the labour" of those services?

I disagree with that framing entirely. But I'm curious to know how you would differentiate.

[–] hydrospanner@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I'd say it's the business model.

Not defending the practices or arguing in defense of bigotry, just offering an explanation.

If it's a business model like a store where you come in and buy things with prices on them, that's open to everyone equally.

If it's a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it's less "owner sells things" and more "clients contract owner for XYZ", and at that point, I'd tend to agree that it's a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.

At that point, both sides have the option to simply not agree and not enter into a contract, for any reason. Just because one may disagree with one party's decision to not enter that agreement doesn't mean they shouldn't have that option.

What if it was a photographer who didn't want to be hired to photograph a Trump rally, a pro-life protest, or something else they felt strongly against like a (peaceful, lawful) far right event?

I don't think in those cases that a photographer should have no choice because the organizers are paying the money, so likewise, in this case, I don't feel like it's fair to force the photographer to cover an event they have a strong moral objection to, simply because that's their business.

Again, I'm not arguing that I agree with the photographer or that their position isn't bigoted, just offering a distinction.

[–] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

I think your comment can be summed up more succinctly with "independent contractors have more discretion to choose their clients or projects than businesses that serve the public." And I agree with you

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[–] HenchmanNumber3@lemm.ee 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm not saying I disagree with your position, but being a Trump supporter or anti-choice is a choice, whereas being LGBTQ isn't, so the comparison isn't of equal demographic descriptors.

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[–] gastationsushi@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Whether you see it or not, your opinion is carving out a way for legal bigotry when done by a christian. Of course an atheist refusing to serve this asshole bigot would open up the door for a religious discrimination case against the atheist because bigots want nothing more than to divide society. We have no obligation to defend a bigot's rights they are actively taking those same rights away from others.

[–] MumboJumbo@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

To say that anyone can be a photographer belittles the skill associated with a professional photographer. That's akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there's a qualitative difference.

That aside, would there be any sign that the photographer could put on their door that would be illegal? No Blacks, No Jews, No Women, etc… If not, play that to the logical extreme; What if all photographers in town had the same sign? What services are appropriate to deny in entirety to a specific class of people.

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[–] Neato@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

No. He gets to choose who to work for. He doesn't get to choose not to work for entire classes of people when those classes are protected.

It's the same as if he said he didn't want black clients.

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[–] DoucheBagMcSwag@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you

“NO F****TS ALLOWED”

“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”

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[–] Mandy@sh.itjust.works 66 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Why are headlines about American Christians always the exact opposite of what the Bible wants them to be?

What happened to love thy neighbour and shit

[–] TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Selective religion to suit their needs. Oldest trick in the literal book.

Jesus was white BTW

/s in case it wasn't abundantly clear

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[–] Denalduh@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

As someone who grew up in a very religious household, I can tell you without a doubt in my mind, the worst people I ever met were the church crowd. Everyone was so nice to each other inside the building but as soon as the service was over, people showed their real colors in the parking lot.

You'd get parents screaming at their kids for "misbehaving" during the boring ass sermon, cars bolting out of their parking spaces with no disregard for other people walking, cars battling each other to try and get out of the lot before the other guy.. You know.. Cause football was starting soon.

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[–] Sanyanov@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Nobody seems to be asking the main question: why would LGBT+ couples want to hire an open homophobe to take their wedding pictures to begin with?

[–] Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I feel like framing the issue like this kinda dangerous. If a single entity (in this case, a business) is allowed to discriminate against a protected class, then are all businesses that provide that service allowed to discriminate against said class?

It seems as though they would be. That gets us back to a version of the Jim Crow South pretty quickly. How are LGBTQ+ folks supposed to exist as equal members in a society if entire segments of that society are legally allowed to close themselves off? What happens when a business that controls major segments of more important service sectors makes a similar decision (for example, say the only Level 1 trauma center in a city is in a privately-owned, religiously-affiliated medical center that now has a legal precedent to say they won't serve LGBTQ+ patients for religious reasons)?

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[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Same reason black people wanted to eat at the whites only lunch counters.

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[–] Dempf@lemmy.zip 15 points 1 year ago

In 303 Creative v. Elenis the answer is: the couple was manufactured. No LGBT+ couple tried to hire them. The man named in court docs who supposedly tried to hire 303 Creative first heard about the case when reporters contacted him shortly before the Supreme Court released their decision. He has been happily married (to a woman) for a long time, and had no need for a wedding website.

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[–] Iapar@feddit.de 40 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?

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[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Even more than the outright bigotry, what concerns me most is this growing trend of conservative ideology that allows for lawsuits without cause. You shouldn't be able to sue unless you are harmed. That's the way its supposed to work. Yet these conservative courts have been turning that concept entirely on its head lately.

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[–] Neon@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago (10 children)

i am kind of torn on this.

on the one hand I think it's important that you can refuse to work with people you don't like for whatever reason.

On the other hand, this is an absolutely childish and stupid reason to not work with someone.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 27 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You can refuse for any reason - except those involving discrimination against a protected class. Sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected class. You can still discriminate, you just have to give another/no reason and make sure it doesn't look like you're doing it for a prohibited reason.

If I wanted to say that no people with glasses were allowed to shop in my store, that would be allowed. If I wanted to say that no pregnant women could shop in my store, that wouldn't be allowed. If it was a pregnant woman wearing glasses, I could claim the first reason, but then, if I was found to be allowing other people with glasses to shop, my reasoning would be challenged and I would have to demonstrate that I wasn't discriminating because of pregnancy.

At least, this is how discrimination laws are supposed to work.

It turns out that anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak and not fully defined, allowing bullshit like this to seep out of judge's mouths and through the cracks. The Equal Protections Clause of the 14th Amendment only grants equality under law, so it only really affects governments. The Civil Rights Act extends this out to private employment under Title VII, but not much further.

What the 303 Creative v. Elenis ruling (the Supreme Court ruling that led to the settlement here) does, in theory, is allow any private person the right to discriminate against any protected class (eg pregnancy, disability, and all the others) so long as the person they're discriminating against isn't an employee. This is clearly bullshit, and I'm sure if people started discriminating against Christians they'd be up in arms.

Thankfully, this settlement does not in any way strengthen this ruling, it only gives one asshole permission by one state - there is no ruling here, just an out of court settlement, thus it does not extend to anyone else. In particular, the state probably thought that because there was no injured party actually being discriminated against there wasn't much point wasting time and money litigating.

Obligatory IANAL.

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[–] lorez@lemm.ee 28 points 1 year ago

More work for the intelligent ones that don't discriminate.

[–] Nacktmull@lemm.ee 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (22 children)

I can´t believe I actually have to say this but here it comes: Everyone should be free to choose the things they do and don´t do. Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do. This goes for LGBTQ+ people just as it goes for photographers and all other humans in this world. I support human rights 100%, which obviously especially includes discriminated minorities like LGBTQ+. However, I have to say that the framing in the article and it´s title, are edgy af and sound like based on an extremist, culture warrior ideology, instead of rational thinking and common sense.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago (14 children)

"I don't want to treat black people or LGBTQ like human beings." -- like that? Or how about signs on businesses "No Gays" or "No Hispanics". Does this apply to government entities and their employees? How about it enough people don't want to drink out of the same public fountain as black people, should we then bring back segregated fountains since everyone has a right to drink from fountains?

Sorry, but showing bigotry cannot be accepted by a tolerant society because it breaks the one tenet of such a society: be tolerant.

The thing you're ignoring is that being rejected by businesses is harmful to those being rejected. And moreover public businesses discriminating is a great way to fracture society and uphold a culture of bigotry and discrimination that then bleeds into every other area. If your religion teaches you to be a bigoted asshole then you need a different religion.

If you run a business, you don't have a right to discriminate against whole groups of people.

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[–] ElBarto@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Waiting for the first Christian couple to be denied the photographers services, to lose their shit about it! It happened when that bakerdid it and it will happen here.

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[–] LazaroFilm@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Sigh. US politics really wants me to become an anarchist.

[–] Lemjukes@lemm.ee 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (15 children)

How is his policy/service any different from a whites only lunch counter?

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[–] frickineh@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Having looked at his photos, I'm gonna say this is no big loss for the LGBTQ+ community. They're marginally better than the stuff advertised on Nextdoor, but man really went all in on the vignettes, and he doesn't seem to have any eye for detail.

But also, fuck the Supreme Court for allowing this nonsense.

[–] raynethackery@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (11 children)

There was an article on Slate a few years ago that I wish I could find again. It was a fictional story about what it was like for a lesbian, with a kid and a wife, going through a day in which businesses were allowed to refuse her service. It's a slippery slope, guys.

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[–] Adramis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Show me someone saying "This is fine", and I'll show you someone who has the privilege to not fear whether they're going to be blocked out of society for the crime of...existing. This is only the first step to "All businesses, including businesses required for life, can discriminate against LGBTQ+ individuals". Y'all are unhinged.

Obligatory:

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[–] lemmefixdat4u@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

We've always had bigots. We always will. In the past, bigoted business behavior has resulted in opportunity for those who are willing to serve the clients the bigots won't. Minorities understand this, and minority-friendly businesses prospered.

I can understand being upset that a business won't accept you as a customer. What I don't understand is why anyone would still insist on supporting that offensive business with their patronage. I'd be spreading the word about their practices, asking folks to boycott them.

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Generally speaking it's almost always a bad idea to force somebody who's diametrically opposed to your core values to work for you. I don't understand how they would have wanted this to ideally go? That the photographer grinds their teeth while being forced to take photos of them?

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